2010 Federal Income Tax Brackets (IRS Tax Rates)
Death and taxes. You can try to fight them both tooth and nail, but at the end of it all, it’s a losing proposition. Especially when it comes to taxes, the government is going to want its fair share cut of your salary and business profits one way or another, whether you like it or not. Rather than engage in tax evasion and possibly live the remaining years of your life on the run as a tax fugitive from the long arm of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), you might as well confront the issue of taxes head on. All we can do is try our best to understand how income taxes work and take reasonable steps to minimize their effects on our financial lives as much as possible.
One of the most introductory ways to plan for the effects of income taxes is to recognize how the various marginal rates are applied to the corresponding tax brackets. Because the United States does not yet currently engage in a flat tax system, our taxable incomes are broken down into different taxation ranges with specific taxation percentages assessed depending on where they fall along the tax bracket spectrum. Although our 2010 tax returns won’t be filed until April 15, 2011, for planning purposes, it’s always good to find out the new changes to the tax code as early as possible. Let’s examine some of the upcoming tax rate changes that are being projected for 2010 and compare them to the previous year’s 2009 tax brackets.
Projections Of New IRS Tax Rates Have Historically Been Extremely Accurate
Year after year, even before the official IRS income tax brackets are released, a select number of tax experts have gotten together and crunched a determinative number of officially released statistics by governmental agencies – to project and extrapolate the upcoming year’s tax brackets. Year after year, the tax rate predictions released by these groups have yielded results in advance with near 100% accuracy. Such an income tax bracket projection ahead of time is possible because many of the major tax code numbers are pegged to officially released inflation statistics – including the standard deduction, the personal exemption, the actual income ranges of the tax brackets, and contributions limits for the investment retirement accounts (both the Traditional and Roth IRA account).
One of these tax prognosticating groups is the Tax Foundation, a Washington D.C. think tank which collects data and publishes research studies on federal and state tax policies. The other notable group operates under the auspices of the Wall Street Journal and is comprised of a merry band of private tax professionals and economists – namely William E. Massey, a senior tax analyst from the Tax and Accounting arm of Thomson Reuters; George Jones, a senior federal tax analyst from CCH; and James C. Young, an accounting professor from Northern Illinois University. For numerous years now, both the Tax Foundation and the Wall Street Journal group have consistently released to the public very accurate, albeit unofficial, early bird peaks at the following year’s projected income tax brackets based on available financial data – well in advance of the official IRS releases. If you’re eager to get a head start on tax year 2010, read on.
IRS Tax Rate Schedule Updates For Tax Year 2010
This year, citing a very sluggish economy and extraordinarily low inflation rates for 2009 to which upcoming 2010 tax rates shall be pegged to, the Tax Foundation and associated experts are predicting very little year to year change for the 2010 federal tax brackets. If there’s anything good that came out of this global economic recession that has been plaguing us for the entirety of 2009 – it’s that the combination of low gas prices, depressed consumer spending, and high jobless numbers with so many people filing for unemployment – have enabled inflation rates to stay quite low during the span of 2009 – at a mere 0.19%. Just compare that to the incredibly high inflation rate of 4.26% during the previous year of 2008 when gas prices were skyrocketing, and it’s clear the recent sudden and precipitous drop in inflation has been extremely unprecedented.
As a result of low inflation, for the most part the 2010 tax bracket ranges will likely stay relatively unchanged. As noted by the tax pundits, for the very first time since the IRS started to index the official federal income tax rates to inflation during the mid 1980’s, taxpayers will get virtually no significant benefit from inflation in 2010. As such – year 2010 tax brackets, standard deductions, personal exemptions, and even retirement account contribution limits will see very little (if any) alterations from prior year numbers.
I will update the table below to reflect the official IRS tax rates for 2010 if decidedly different numbers are ultimately released by the IRS. However, with tax bracket projections by the experts having enjoyed a near perfect accuracy rate for quite a few years now, I don’t have any reason to doubt that the displayed figures below will ultimately wind up as official.
Federal Income Tax Brackets For 2010 – Based On Taxable Income Ranges
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Beyond some slight numerical shuffling of the taxable income ranges, there will not be too many significant tax changes from 2009 into 2010. Here is a breakdown of the projected changes (if any) for 2010 as they compare to the prior year:
- Personal Exemption: No change. For the very first time, the standard exemption for 2010 will not be going up and will stay unchanged at $3,650, the same as it was in 2009.
- Standard Deduction: No change, except for Head Of Household filers. The standard deduction for married couples filing jointly will remain unchanged at $11,400. For those filing as single, the standard deduction will remain at $5,700 as well. However, Head of Household filers will see a slight increase by $50 – from $8,350 (year 2009) to $8,400 (year 2010).
- Overall Tax Bracket Thresholds: Will increase across the board for all tax filing statuses, albeit at a significantly lower amount compared to past tax year increases.
- Annual Gift Tax Exclusion Amount: No change. For tax year 2010, the current gift tax exclusion limit of $13,000 will stay the same. Often overlooked by most taxpayers, the gift tax stipulates that gift givers must pay a special tax on gift amounts that exceed a certain amount per year.
- Traditional and Roth IRA Contribution Limits: No change. Despite the fact that IRA and Roth IRA contribution limits did not rise in 2009 in response to strong inflationary pressures in 2009, there will still be no corresponding change in the maximum contribution limits to individual retirement accounts for 2010. The standard IRA contribution limit for 2010 will remain unchanged at $5,000. The catch up contribution limit for those 50 or older will remain at $6,000 as well.
October 7th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Where’s the reward for being successful? Being solidly in the 25% bracket, we pay our fair share as productive citizens. Last year’s filings were quite an eye opener from previous ones (and we know the reasons why). We live a moderately frugal life, and will definitely get more aggressive in maximizing what advantages still remain for small business owners.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
It is disappointing to have to pay 35% of income to the gov’t. This is why the mortgage interest deduction is so much more powerful for a high income earner than a lower one.
October 7th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Why can’t this federal government and the President Barack Obama administration get together and come up with a fairer tax system? Why are they fussing around with health care when taxes have a greater universal impact on our lives?
It’s time we abolish the existing marginal tax rates and throw out the existing and cumbersome tax codes…and replace them with a flat tax of say 5 to 10% and then impose a stiffer sales tax on products and services based on consumption instead. I’m sick of paying out so much money in the form of taxes when I don’t even consume all that much resources in this economy. I’ve been trying to save for an emergency fund but it’s nearly impossible with all of the hefty income taxes (both state and federal) that I have to keep shelling out.
Meanwhile, all of the rich tycoons and CEO’s are able to bypass the high tax brackets through tax shelters like the home mortgage deduction and buy all of the yachts and expensive indulgences they want. It’s not fair!
October 7th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Those of you rich folks in the top 35% tax bracket need to stop whining. You don’t get to whine. I hope this administration taxes the beejesus out of you all…it’s time you paid your fair share and get with the program. It’s only fair the wealthy pay more out of their millions and billions of dollars to subsidize the rest of us who need it the most. We are struggling in this recession and it’s time to fix the problem – by taxing the rich!
October 8th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Gwen – Socialists unite!
October 11th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Nice info that helps us plan for 09 tax filing. Thanks.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
umm…by wealthy you mean all those doctors, lawyers, businessmen and double-earner families of mid-level exec + nurse or some such combination, right? I mean, those in the 28% and up categories are not all filthy-rich idle millionaires.
I get tired of people telling me that after my husband completes his seemingly endless education & training in medicine (right now he’s making less than most first-year teachers) he deserves to pay out 28% of his income in taxes (or even better, that he should pay more!) while at the same time not being able to claim any deductions for his college & medical school loans (which are comparable to a good-size mortgage for many). We’ll be paying those off for decades–but since we’re so “rich” we should be taxed out the behind. Right. So that’s the reward for people who scrimp, save, borrow, and work hard to better themselves.
October 15th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Maybe if corporate tax rates were higher than individual tax rates, all the whinny “rich” boys & girls (who think they aren’t already rewarded by their buying power & status, considering $373K a year translates to roughly $1.02K per day before taxes which is what some of us “poorer” kids make per month) would be happier. Could someone explain the logic behind an $18m corporation paying the same tax rate as an individual earning $373K? If the government held corporations more accountable, the government wouldn’t be digging so deeply into the upper crust’s pockets…and so obviously pissing them off.
October 17th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
The gov’t needs to get out of our lives and stop giving those that would rather not work a free ride. Less GOV’T = less gov’t spending = less taxes needed. People need to be responsible for themselves. Most politicians could not run a business unless they had a open ended checkbook, for it is evedent they do not understand you cannot spend more than you have.
October 18th, 2009 at 6:48 am
Does anyone know if there any any tax implications if a non-resident alien spouse sends over $10,000 to his/her spouse in USA. Does the American spouse have to show this as income for tax purposes?
October 18th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
I am working a full-time and two part-time jobs. I am trying to save, pay off my student loans and then buy a house (and hopefully buy a newer car than the 1993 vehicle I drive right now). I am also planning on having kids in a couple of years (after I pay these things off). I am working day and night, Sunday through Friday. Why? So the more I make, the more I can give to the government. What is the point? I might use government services (like the road and later schools, etc), but if we had a flat percentage rate, I would still be paying more than someone working less, or getting paid less overall. Why would I get taxed a higher percentage? This makes no sense. I am not using governmental services more often. In the past, I have always been in the lower tax brackets and I had never looked to see how much more I would be taxed for making more money (until now, because I have three jobs).
October 20th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Hey lola-
Corporations are us. There isn’t some “magical” corporation out there. The owners of all those businesses you always hear about are your neighbors (who own their stock). And we’re sick of having to pay taxes twice on our earnings-once when our corporation earns it and once when we pay it to ourselves as dividends. There’s no magic pot of money out there to pay for government functions. It all comes from us.
Our tax system is progressive enough as it is. If you’re truly a $1000K/month earner, you don’t pay taxes, they pay you. In fact, over 40% of the households in this country don’t pay ANY federal income tax. How is that fair? You don’t drive on the roads? The soldiers and police don’t defend your home?
The “rich” are getting socked enough as it is. They pay more in health care insurance to cover those who don’t carry it because they “can’t afford it.” Then they pay more in taxes to cover those on disability, medicaid, WIC, HUD etc etc etc. You think everyone on disability can’t work? You think everyone on medicaid/disability spends the dollars responsibly and gets off as soon as they can? Welcome back from fantasy land. They can’t deduct student loan interest. They lose the earned income credit, the retirement savings credit, the exemptions on their kids, the ability to use a Roth IRA or deduct a traditional IRA etc etc etc.
I don’t mind a progressive tax system and paying a higher percentage of my income then those who make less, but everyone needs to pay something. For most middle class Americans federal income tax is INCOME TO THEM, not a payment they have to make. Meanwhile, they’re buying McMansions and running up their credit card bills and making those of us responsible enough to make the payments we’ve agreed to foot the bill and bail them out. This stupid $250 stimulus Obama is giving to seniors is another stupid handout. Social security is indexed to inflation. Guess what? We had negative inflation this year (deflation) so social security payments should go down? Who ever told you they were supposed to go up every year? The pussies in Congress are afraid to say no. They rather we go bankrupt. But when they decide bankrupt is a bad idea what do they do? Oh, the rich can pay. Send them the bill.
I’ve been poor, and I’ve been “rich.” I chose to eat beans and rice, go to school, work hard, and sacrifice. Don’t feel like you’re entitled to the wealth I’m creating by busting my ass. Go make your own.
October 20th, 2009 at 12:40 am
P.S. This “rich guy” is in the 25% bracket. But I hope to be in the 33% bracket soon. But hopefully because I’m making more money, and not because Congress decided to raise my taxes again.
October 24th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
That government that governs best governs least. Mr Obama, get your hands out of my wallet!
October 26th, 2009 at 6:11 am
If everybody would mind their own business they wouldn’t be griping so much. Money will come and go, some people were blessed with riches. Others were not. Alot of people inherited their riches and we are not allowed to be mad at them for what their family created for them. I am unfortunately unwealthy, but money can not buy happiness. I have a beautiful wife and kids, I am just fine. You cant go on living life stressing all the small things. You could be living on the streets or in a shelter somewhere, be fortunate that you are able to write these comments. God bless!
October 26th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Anyone in the higher tax brackets SHOULD GET TO KEEP THEIR MONEY! Taxing the rich more sucks!! Oh and for the record, I have been in the 15% bracket most of my adult life, so I am not rich!!
Anybody that makes big dollars has obviously worked hard to get where they are, and they deserve every bit of money they make! And if someone has gotten rich by exploiting loop holes in the system, well they are smarter than you aren’t they?? Knowledge is power, so if someone knows a trick or two that allows them to keep their money, more power to them! Enough of our money goes out to crap that will never do us or our families any good, and that we would not necessarily want to give money to in the first place!
For anyone that is jealous of the people in the higher tax brackets, I say, go take advantage of some government money and go back to school and get your Master’s Degree or your Doctorate and work hard at it, don’t sit around and cry that the rich should be taxed more to support people that don’t want to go out and make something out of themselves. And, for the record, I don’t even have an associates degree, I’m just a die hard conservative who thinks that hard work should be rewarded, and laziness should be penalized. This stupid country has it completely backwards!!
I know there are plenty of people that are not lazy and who work hard, but there are also plenty of lazy people who think the rich, who have succeeded in their field, should support their lazy lifestyles, and that is just wrong!
October 26th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Thank you so much, Jeff, for that breath of fresh air in such a stifling debate over something that is exactly what you say it is–worry over material possessions. I can see both sides of the argument, and really, I don’t think anyone is truly wrong here, but why worry so much over something as silly as money? Be happy with what you have and be thankful, above all else.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
The responses of the people whining on here just shows general illiteracy in history and personal finance people are. Maybe it’s time to watch something else than a reality show and read something else than bible fiction?
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Thanks Jeff. I think you are absolutely right.
I am single and I am seeing that my federal tax bracket is much higher (>10%) than those of my married friends who have working wives.
People who earn should be allowed to keep their money instead of paying in terms of taxes for someone lazy and stupid enough to not get a job or those money hungry companies bailout who play foul on the wall street.
I am not saying don’t tax me. But please be within reason and make it flat for everyone.
November 2nd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Enough bull about this whole taxing the rich complaints by the wealthy. If your income is above $100,000 a year, you are rich and can pay more in taxes. Enough said. There are people in this country that are struggling on a few dollars a day and you complain about paying a little bit more in federal taxes out of all that money you make? How dare you!
This tax system is broken and we need a fairer tax system. If socialism is the only way to make this country a better place for everyone, then yes, we want socialism. I want everyone to have a chance in this world and not just allow the super rich to continue running this country into the ground. Why was there even a stimulus check for the big banks and commission payments for the bank employees? Why are we the taxpayer bailing out the rich executives and CEO’s when we are suffering in this recession? We need to bail out the unemployed masses, not the government people in Washington D.C. and the financials in New York City.
This system we have right now only benefits the wealthy an is absolutely wrong! Fair tax is a must and a human right! I hope Obama and the Dems can get this thing done. We need universal health coverage for all citizens and residents, and we need tax brackets that will be fair to everyone.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:48 am
I think our government should get back to following the constitution that is was founded on. Where in the constitution does it say that citizens should pay 45% of their income to the government?? Where in the constitution does it say that it’s the government’s responsibility to provide healthcare to it’s citizens?? It doesn’t!! It stinks that our government is bankrupting the entire country, and our children’s futures, and there are alot of people sitting around thinking it’s ok because they are down on their luck and wanting someone to bail them out.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
Miss Swan:
People like you make me sad for my children. People like you are going to tear down this once great nation. People like you will make sure that my children’s America will be worse than the one I grew up in. And I’ve learned the hard way that people like you wil never change, no matter how much logic and facts are presented to you. But I keep trying…
Do you know the government collects almost $2,000,000,000,000 a year in taxes. Thats 2 Trillion if you were wondering. That’s a thousand Billion dollars. Thta’s not enough money to help the “truly needy”? The problem is not the rich, it is the millions of Americans (and illegal aliens) that made horrendous choices in their lives and now expect honest tax payers they have never met to pay for their mistakes. People who go our partying instead of studying in school. People who use drugs because its “cool”. People who have 4 kids from 4 different fathers because that makes them popular or loved. In general, lazy people who feel entitled and get hundreds of billions of dollars a year from responsible people because they are incredibly irresponsible.
With $2T we could quadruple the help to the truly needy and DESERVING just by cutting off the leaches. But youdont want to do that do you Miss Swan. You just want to punish the evil “rich” that go to work before their kids wake up and get home after they are in bed. Yeah, that sounds much more “fair”.
This country is doomed……
November 5th, 2009 at 11:44 am
I enjoy reading how Miss swan suggests that a fair tax is a human right… right along with a house, nice car, and everything else misinformed people believe should be a right… read the words, RIGHT to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS– the pursuit..the oppotunity to gain happiness…NOT THE RIGHT for it to be handed to you! You must work for it…
And those who say well I pay 15% on 20k while the company that made 1,000,000 also pays that 15%— ok so for you its 3000 bucks and for them its 150,000…. sounds fair to me! (and I am in that lower portion that makes under 50k a year!)
November 5th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
So Maria…sure sounds like you’re in favor of a flat tax then. A flat tax sounds fair on paper…after all 20% against a low income person is the same as 20% on a richer, wealthier tycoon right? Each pays the same percentage of their net income in taxes right? Wrong! Flat taxes are inherently unfair. There is a certain basic income level that one needs to survive and taxing even low income wage earners at the same level as that applied to a wealthier individual is not resulting in the same standard of living.
Yes, we all have the right to the pursuit of happiness, but the government has the responsibility to ensure that the playing field is fair and level for all. This is not a free for all island where it’s everyone man for himself. The government must ensure that wealth is distributed fairly to those that really need it. Because we all start off at different income levels and wealth levels in life, the government needs to take it upon itself to do what’s right!
November 6th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Wow. Just when you though Miss Swan couldn’t be topped when it comes to Socialist propogands, here comes Dan with “the government’s job is to redistribute wealth”.
I always found this a very insightful compare and contrast:
Liberals believe that Government exists to provide for the people
Conservatives believe that Government exists to remove barriers so that the people can provide for themselves.
So true.
November 6th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Why does everyone want something for nothing?? If you want more money in your bank account go out get the degree you need to do so. Don’t EXPECT those of us who chose to go to school and further our education to do this. I chose not to live off welfare and foodstamps. I chose not to have other hard working people support me. I
November 6th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I TAKE CARE OF ME!!! Some of you should try it. You are only what YOU make of yourself!!!!
November 7th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Why do the rich always say that everyone should just lift themselves up. But what happens to the worker who has no choice in what a bank does, has the company he is working for get there credit denied? does that mean the worker should pay for the faults of the rich elite? And where else in the world can you make well over 375k a year and pay this low of a tax break and have a living standard like we do in the U.S.? I say the rich should pay a higher tax rate and if you cant make it on 250k a year… maybe you should look at how the poor are living and that does not mean the people who dont want to work…. I have worked 2 full time jobs at the same time and still could not make all ends meet, I have not had health care for 4 years. and i drive a car that should have been put in a junk yard 5 years ago…. But yet you complain about a high tax rate. Something you should realize is that not everyone has an equal opportunity to move up the social latter. So next time you feel that the poor and lower class worker are just lazy and should lift themselves up, think about yourself working 2 crappy jobs 40 hours a week trying to make it in society…. Some people do need a helping hand ( not a hand out). and the next time i hear about someones freedom being violated because of the tax rate I am going to scream. Your rights are not being taken away because you pay a higher tax rate, your freedoms are being taken away by all the government involvement in peoples personal choices….Abortion,Drugs,speech, Anything that does not effect people outside of the person making the choice should not be restricted from doing that action.
November 8th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
To Financial Samurai — if you are paying 35 percent of your income (earnings?) and by that you mean, taxes/income and not your marginal rate, then you must be doing quite well, are including both sides of the payroll tax and are living in a high tax state and city as in NYC. If so, then count how lucky you are and stop kvetching. Otherwise you sure are not a financial samurai and/or you can’t distinquish between an average and marginal rate, in which case you should either be more precise in what you mean or foreswear commenting about tax structure and policy.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Socialist:
You are where you are because of the choices you made and the effort you gave (or didn’t) in your life. Please dont blame others for your situation. Everyone DOES have an equal OPPORTUNITY to move up the social “ladder”. That does not mean that everyone takes advatange of that opportunity. Millions of people decide to take the easy route and not make sacrifices and work hard so that they can make a better life for themselves and their children. Millions of people decide not to study hard in school. They decide to have kids at a young age out of wedlock. They decide to do drugs or commit crimes. Those people should not be on an equal rung of the social ladder as responsible people.
Did you stay in weekends studying in High School so you could get good grades and go to college? Or did you go out partying? Don’t tell me you couldn’t afford college. I dont want to hear it. Growing up in FL, every single State School offered me a free ride if I would stay in state to go to college. Just had to be in the Top 10% of my class. And I’m not even a minority! Most states are exactly the same way.
If you went to college, did you pick a real degree? Something difficult that would give you the skills to get a good job out of college? Enginnerring, Accounting, Finance? Or did you major in Literature or Sociology or Philosophy because it was easier and you didnt have to study? If you had made the right choices you wouldn’t have to work 2 crappy full time jobs for no money.
And I don’t want to hear “my mother was sick and I had to drop out of high school” to support my family. That is the response given by 99% of anonymous internet poster who dont want to admit that their situation in life is of their own doing. 1) There are a million social welfare programs that would have supported your family while you studied hard and went to college and 2) If you really are the one in a million where this case is true, then you should have received a lot more government aid then you did. But all of the other leaches on the system took the moeny away from the families that really deserved the help.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Margaret Thatcher said in 1976:
“Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people’s money. It’s quite a characteristic of them. They then start to nationalise everything, and people just do not like more and more nationalisation, and they’re now trying to control everything by other means. They’re progressively reducing the choice available to ordinary people.”
What will we do when all the rich are gone? Then who will provide jobs for the rest of us and who will pay the taxes?
Those that demand that the rich should pay more are thieves who legitimize their theft by having the government take from the haves and give to the have nots.
By the way, I am not rich but I do believe in our United States Constitution.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Dammit…forget about taxes and tax brackets. What about jobs? This country needs jobs!! People who are unemployed and living off of unemployment benefits are angry because the system has let them down. It’s about being dignified, being able to provide for your helpless family, and being provided for by the governmental system. When you’re laid off and the government does nothing to provide for every American citizen who wants a job, there’s something seriously wrong. Enough with this whole health care debate and talks of nationalized health insurance. Bottom line – the government needs to start subsidizing job creation big time. Stop giving our economic stimulus money away to the big name banks. Stop giving our economic stimulus money away to citizens in the form of one time pointless stimulus checks. It’s about jobs, jobs, jobs. Once jobs are up and everyone is fully employed, then let’s talk turkey.
November 10th, 2009 at 10:59 am
I’ve busted ass for four years in college financing it myself and just got my first job (after busting ass to find that too). I started calculating how fast I can pay off my 120k student loan making 50k a year and I figured for years while in college that it would only take a few. WRONG, 38% of my paycheck is now going to taxes.
…time to get married I guess and play the system since the government is so damn involved in every facet of my life. Look in someone elses pockets Mr Obama! (try the 40% of Americans who pay squat in income tax!)
November 13th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Life isnt fair, the people making less think that someone making more is stealing from them, and the “rich” have some how unjustly by being successful should pay, often bad decisions make people less weathy, life is about building, it was said once the way to getting rich is slowly, my wife and I both have always worked, and finally after 30 years, make 150,000 a year, we live in a modest ranch style house, (15 year morgage paid for in 8 years) have paid for our educations in cash, helped with our sons education in cash, maxed out our K-plans, watch our pensions stolen or standing by to be stolen, we raise a garden, drive our cars untill the wheels fall off, we live by the rule of very little or no debt, we dont own toys and read allot, no big screen tvs here, dont even have a dish washer. Dont smoke, dont drink, Look back on your life and ask, did I do all I could by myself to get my standard of life, could I have made better descisions, could I have moved, gone to school, stayed married, having your yearly social security statments will help, yes life isnt fair you will always have people who have enough and want more and expect others to pay, job creation have left the states because of you letting them, letting your vote mean nothing, keep begging for more handouts and you will be poorer, sorry your life sucks, but buck up and get off your ass and go work for it where every you can find it, and just maybe you might appreicate what you have and earn more, and just in case you missed something, my wife and I have lost five jobs in the last 30 years. And as for the market crash, we beat that one by a year by getting out, we knew there was a train wreak coming and we did just fine, you have to pay attention to everything in life and if you cant why should others compound your problems by giving you more of our money.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Well said Josh, I should have read your statements, before writting mine, you are right on target, John Wayne said it once, “life is tough, and it is tougher if you are stupid” what people are going through needs to be looked at as temporary, work harder, take your licks, and figure out how you are going to move onto the next phase of your life, beating your present condition, others have and so will you, your going to learn what your momm’s didnt teach you, life is tough, but giving more of mine isnt going to make you tougher, it will make make it worse for you the next time, by the way the super mega rich they are going to tax, is in the 150,000 dollar range, thats me, there isnt enough super mega rich around to make a differance, and if you had not borrowed all of that money and paid that interst to the super banks, then they would not be the super banks. congrads, you helped make the problem by giving them your money, now you complain, figure out how much of your income over the course of your working life went to interest at a bank.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:36 am
ANGRY SAYS – you are right, the eco-movement have forced good jobs out and are doing there best to get the rest, feel for you, america used to make everything we used, and that was in my lifetime, buy american, but then the unions forced there elite needs on everyone else and took more then they deserved. Governement has taken over for the unions and become the taker….it is a mess….keep up hope some how, wish you luck
November 13th, 2009 at 10:41 am
JD and others, read allot of true comments today, glad Im not alone, we are the unheard majority, tax us 12,000 dollars less a year and see what kind of stimulas we have.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:54 am
To Dan C. – Read your consitution, the government does not have the “responsablity” to make the playing field level, we as citizens have the resposnablity to make the playing field level. Your off base here buddy, sorry but all of our efforts are not the same, so why take from someone who has the stress and the hard work to “level the playing field” for those that dont, I know people are working 2-3 jobs to make it, and I feel for them, I have been there, longer then I wanted, but I didnt take a handout by having the playing field leveled, that is socialism.
November 13th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Maybe this country needs a good war on its soil, destroying our land and property to see what we really have, that would wake everyone up, that would make everyone equal, we dont deserve more the our god given rights, and I did say GOD given rights, everything else is gravy and food on the table. Thanks for your comments, I just got on this page to see the tax tables for next year so that I can plan my life and how much I will have left, before I pay, I wish all you guys luck next year and a better life.
November 17th, 2009 at 1:23 am
Wow…what a horrible world we live in. I can’t believe people actually think this way. How awful and sad. The world is not so black and white. Not everyone that is struggling financially is lazy or hasn’t tried hard enough. There will always be people that take advantage of the system but not everyone is that way. It is arrogant to assume that you have all the answers and that you can just judge someone based on how much money they have. Unfortunately not all hardworking people get ahead in life. There are plenty of hard working people that are struggling. There are also plenty of lazy people that are wealthy and never had to work hard for what they have. Life just isn’t fair and is certainly not cut and dry.
Oh and by the way…there are plenty of people that went to college that are struggling financially and there are plenty of people that never went to college that are wealthy. So whether someone went to college or not does not determine how their life will turn out.
Yes, I did go to college.
Somehow this discussion took a bad turn and became more about what you think of poor people rather than what you think of taxes.
November 17th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Someone:
It is exactly your mentality that will keep “the poor” living in poverty and dependent on the government not for years, but for generations. If you look back at the dialogue on this blog, it is pretty consistent that truly needy and deserving people should get the temporary help they need when they find themselves on hard times. Unfortunately, hundreds of billions of dollars are being stolen from these people by the lazy, undeserving individuals that have decided to game the system. So much more could be done to help the poor rise out of poverty if we werent wasting this massive sum of money every year.
But your way of thinking is shared by tens of millions in this country. We cant cut back on one single social welfare program. We can’t apply any real standards of how and to whom this money is given out. Give the money to everyone, and you are bound to give it to at least a few truly needy and deserving people. The massive fraud and abuse? Thats just a price we pay for “doing the right thing”.
Please think about this for a few minutes. The Wall Street Journal did a study a few years back where they looked at thousands of recipients of government social programs. Welfare, foodstamps, public housing, MediCaid, etc. They found that over 70% had one or more of three characteristics in common. 1) Had at least one child out of wedlock 2) Dropped out of High School and 3) Convicted of a crime. I was shocked, but not surpriswd when I read this.
Please tell me how more money solves these problems? I would much rater stop rewarding these individuals for bad behavior and decision making and triple the benefits that the other 30% receive.
November 17th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Your tax dollars go to ridiculous world policing and unneccessary wars created and prolonged by inept leaders and fear mongers who make a profit from the business of war and oil and are so stupid they couldn’t even book a tupperware party.
War and corporate welfare is what you should be angry about. Welfare for rich people is what should be pissing you off about the US. By definition, it’s quite impossible for poor people to have all of your money, isn’t it? Your taxes go to the lazy rich, not the lazy poor. Wake up, America.
November 17th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
$932,891,425,796 and running for your stupid war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Get a grip and grow up.
November 17th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Josh. Riddle us this, O great hardworking honest American: how long has it taken America to ever spend $932,891,425,796 on welfare programs as opposed to wars and what kind of genius plan is that? The dollars for war versus dollars for poverty isn’t even close. I have a hard time endorsing the use of tax dollars for destroying other people on the planet rather than for taking care of our own, but, I have a feeling that you’ll try to make a case for that. Try doing it without using the words “terrorists”, “socialism” or “pride”. Please.
November 17th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
ANARCHY!!!
Haha…
It’s the government.
Do you really think they are trying to do what’s best for us?
November 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Bottom Line we need a tax overhaul, after 29 years in the work force I’m going from the 15% bracket to the 28% bracket. The only draw back is the tax increase that I will have to pay. One fundamental foundations of this country was to build on prosperity. Our country THE Administrations’ of the past and the present has destroyed the tax system. Now more then ever now being in the economic down turn the tax system needs to be streamed line. You have to strive to be in the next highest tax bracket to live as you done in years past. The Gov’t and it’s unconscious decisions in passing bills with hidden agendas lead back to increased taxes to us and in turn we have to make more $ for WHAT TAXES. Go offshore
November 18th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
I am for doing good to the poor, but…I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed…that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
~Benjamin Franklin
November 19th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Well “fierce” lime…According to the most recent breakdown of 2007 Federal Spending, we spent 980B on Social Security and Medicare. And we spent an additional 570B on Social Welfare Programs like Medicaid, Welfare, Unemployment, Food Stamps, government housing, EITC, etc. So to answer your questions, it takes us about 8 months of spening for government social programs to equal the cost of ~8 years of Iran and Afghanistan war spending (thats if your numbers are true. I didnt research it but just gave you that one). Even f you wantto back out SSI and Medicare, it takes less than 2 years of other welfare programs to equal almost a decade of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Sorry to let facts get in you way.
Also, I just want to say this its obvious by your writing that you are synmpathetic to the “terrorists”and beleive that America is a greater threat to the world than Islamic Jihadism. You most certainly desire a “Socialist” system in America and around the world. And you obviously have little to no “pride” for this great country. Did I fit them all in?
November 19th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
I’m in the 15% and I’m going to say that Gwen has stated the most absurd thing I’ve heard in awhile…I don’t make a lot of money (obviously) but I’m not asking for hand outs from more successful people than myself. Generally speaking, they worked hard for what they have and if you had the income you wouldn’t want to give it away either. It’s not their job to support you because your life has failed, miserably or because you lack the motivation to improve your situation. Nothing annoys me more than people who blame more successful people for their crappy life. Start making $350k a year and then tell me you want to pay taxes because other people can’t get their shit together.
November 19th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Josh:
u sure do spend alot of time on the internet….?
November 20th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
S:
Touche! “u” certainly have got me there. Please disregard my previous posts as the ramblings of an internet addict.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
I have my own opinions, but my opinions can sometimes change if I openly listen to the opinions of others. Keep this conversation going…I am on the fence on a few issues and would like to continue to hear your thoughts.
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Following last night’s senate vote, there are several things you can kiss goodbye. One is your wallet, regardless of your income unless you are close to the poverty line. Second, are the taxes that all those “rich” doctors pay. Under the German Health plan of socialized medicine, doctors make the equivalent of $80,000 a year. So not only can you say goodbye to the high tax rates that doctors PAY, you can say goodbye to doctors in general. Who in their right mind will spend 12 years in training, go in debt upwards of a quarter mill to get that training, for a job that just MIGHT barely hit six figures. I feel for GC, who laid out the kind of financial bind many new doctors have already discovered. It will be catastrophic for them if Obamao gets his way. (not a misspelling)
That bill will kill businesses, our superior and easily accessible healthcare system, and ultimately, our country. Forget about 20 plus million more people being insured, as there won’t BE any doctors to see them. What good is coverage with no doctors?
If you have not already, contact all of your legislators and tell them not to vote for the death nell of our country. Fix the problems, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. And don’t believe that nonsense about how all this “change” is going to reduce the national debt. If it is approved as planned, it will cost us an additional 2 trillion. We already owe 12 trillion. What are those concrete heads thinking?
By the way, if you think doctors are rich, better look at their divorce rate, stress level and the fact that on average they die 15 years sooner than their peers.
Enjoy the debate, but remember, our national house is on fire and almost no one is paying attention.
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:57 pm
For all of you people who say those making more should pay more taxes, do the math. 25% of 130,000 is more that 25 % of 70,OOO. And 25% of 130,000 is a heck of a lot more than 15% of 30,000 or 10% of 15,000. And for those who are blessed to make even more, the are paying more.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Something to think about …..
When you send your money to the government, it then hands part of it back to you for programs like welfare, schools, roads, and now “healthcare”. The Government first takes out a big chunk to pay the federal bureaucracy, then passes down what is left which often is less than 30%. The new Healthcare program will cost much more than we are paying from private healthcare now or we have to cut back on services. Just watch and see. For some reason too many people seem to think the new “public health care” system will be nearly free, but there is no such thing.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:38 pm
I have read many of these posts, and I do agree that laziness should be penalized, and those of us who bust our rumps, should be rewarded, but here’s my line of thought, those that are too lazy to get out and find a job, and live off of the government, BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT THEY CHOOSE TO DO, should be the ones that should be paying it back through income tax, not getting more money back than those of us who work for it, the working class is the reason these type of people are able to receive such benefits, so why are we the ones getting less back at the end of the year, versus them getting more, I know someone who barely worked all year (due to laziness) and got back nearly 10 grand, whereas my family barely received anything (only because of the interest on our house), it’s a messed up system!!!
November 27th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
For those of you who are honestly saying to those of us who are talented enough to earn the money we make, and put in the time and effort and stress that we do to make it – I say, you deserve where you are in life.
Go read an economics book (I have an economics undergrad so I am at least as credible as my liberal, socialist teachers made me). You are in squalor precisely because of the tax rates on the rich. My money is now going into a savings account, instead of into the economy as velocity of money. I was offered a raise this year if I would sign up to some personal targets that would have made my life miserable. I looked at what I would get to keep (less than 50% after all in) and decided it wasn’t worth it…wealth was destroyed from the system – the same system you are hanging out in at the bottom.
But my money continues to go to the Govt in larger amounts, and you continue to live in squalor needing help. Why do you think that is? Again – go read an economics book. Government is not your answer.The $20,000+ I gave to charity last year turned into nothing this year because I got whacked with some arcane AMT burden that I will be paying off for 3 years. I also will not be moving, not be buying a new car to support overpaid union workers in Detroit, and I won’t be investing in companies to get the economy moving again.
Handle your rig before you make uninformed comments. If you are at the bottome, it is a combination of randomness (which lefties and atheists worship) and personal failure.
Sorry – but I have no mony to give you now.
November 27th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
JC has hit the nail on the head. The dis-incentivization of the higher wage earners by way of high tax brackets is sure to flatline the recovery. At this point, the top 1% of wage earners pay over 40% of the total federal income tax paid by the American people. If you think that is not enough, and apparently it isn’t according to Obama and his henchmen, then wait until those wage earners become ex-patriots. Margaret Thatcher was right when she said, “The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
You see, people like JC are pushed to just save the money, not stimulate the economy, then retire to a country like Costa Rica. Very soon some of these third world countries will provide more freedom than the U.S. will. They will also look forward to receiving hundreds of billions of dollars courtesy of the U.S. and other developed countries as a result of the much ballyhooed Copenhagen treaty soon to be signed by Obama. That’s right, it’s time to spread the wealth. Oh, wait a minute, we have no wealth. That’s ok, we’ll just borrow a couple trillion more from China (who won’t be participating in the carbon pay out to other countries) so we can pay the carbon debt. Oh, but that means even higher taxes!
Oh, but wait, the “climate change” problem was just recently exposed as a myth; a myth designed to sap America of its power and “spread the wealth” to less fortunate citizens and poorer nations (who are poor due to the lack of capitalism). You won’t see the liberal press covering that little item though, will you. No, because they are all enthralled with this liberal ‘throw the U.S. under the bus’ mentality spewed out by our liberal leaders.
Ladies and gentlemen, it matters not what tax bracket you are in. Your taxes are going up no matter what the silver tongued devil from Harvard tells you. Eventually though, you won’t have people with a strong work ethic, ambition and high earning power to pay the bills. Good luck with that. I look forward to never paying the wonderful AMT (alternative minimum tax) ever again. I will miss this country as it used to be, and should have been forevermore, the greatest country in the history of the world.
Signed,
No longer throwing good money after bad.
P.S. See you on the beach
November 30th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Very well said Josh, JC and cogipro. I’ve sat here for ten minutes trying to think of something to say that you haven’t already covered. And Josh – I’m glad you spend a lot of time on the internet. Obviously not as much as S does or u wuld b ritin ur hole articel like dis.
December 1st, 2009 at 11:14 am
It’s tough to listen to the politicians who run on the theme that the rich should pay their fair share. That stance gets a lot of votes in a country that seems to be turning on smart, successful people and innovative corporations, the type of people and companies that built this country into what it is today.
I do think all people should pay their fair share. A flat tax on income would go a long way towards accomplishing that (I know there are some other issues such as deductions that this does not address). Anyway, every citizen should contribute a little, even if they end up taking more back in terms of the programs and other entitlements of which they are beneficiaries.
Let’s use an 18% flat tax as an example. You earn $40, 000, you pay $7,200; you earn $400,000, you pay $72,000; you earn $4,000,000, you pay $720,000. So, you can see that the rich will still be paying for almost all of the costs of running the federal government and all of its programs that the people at the lower income level enjoy. This to me seems fair – at least all citizens would have some skin in the game.
December 1st, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Taxes are simply a means of paying for government spending. Our national debt is now at an estimated 12 trillion dollars ($12,023,527,103,043.84). There were 155 million (155,490,000) federal income tax returns filed in 2008 which means that if we wanted to wipe out our national debt this year (excluding compounding interest) each family would have to pay 77 million dollars ($77,326,690.48) before the end of the year. Let me ask you, Mr. and Mrs. $50,233 national median income tax filer, do you have a spare 77.3 million dollars you could mail in to Washington this Christmas? Of course, we need 100% participation!
I’m only rich in the eyes of someone from a third-world country (25% tax bracket), but I’m ready for a “fair”, accross-the-board flat-tax with no exemptions for individuals or corporations. Cut the IRS down to about 250 people saving 100’s of billions of dollars in government employee costs, tax preparation expenses and eliminate loopholes. How about it?
The vast majority of your fellow countrymen aren’t “rich” because of luck, inheritance or by cheating, it’s because they are creative, intelligent, hard-working, shrewd and thrifty. As an example, the average millionaire in this country started from almost nothing and drives a used pick-up truck. (for more read “The Millionaire Next Door”).
The bottom line is to vote for representatives who will reduce government spending, not increase it – this will cause the eventual decreasing of tax rates. It might also be nice if less than the current 46% of the population who pay zero federal taxes would be required to help fund the thousands of pages of unread legislation that their elected leaders are signing into law in the middle of the night while silencing the protests of the representatives of the other “half” of the country.
December 1st, 2009 at 5:22 pm
I’m in the 15% tax bracket (right now) and thought it was a possibility we could get bumped up, so I decided to google “2010 tax brackets” and here I am.
I’d like to say that i’m also “on the fence” about things. I dont know the “solution” to the problem……but I do know that what we have now isnt working.
I’m 23 and work 30+ hours a week, and also go to school to be a nurse, and my husband is a prison guard. My husband made some bad choices while in college (choosing to go to private school) and we are 70K in student loan debt. Needless to say- on paper we make good money, however after the 700 student loan payments, the car payment, and the mortgage payment, it doesnt leave much left over. (we arent big spenders, our mortgage is LESS than the student loans, one car is over a 12 years old)
We accept these mistakes and the fact that we are struggling right now…and have learned from them.
We aren’t anywhere near what i’d consider “rich” but some people would consider us “rich” because we are at the high end of our tax bracket.
For those of you who think that the “rich” should pay MORE in taxes are rediculous. I think EVERYONE should pay the same taxes.
Here is one of the reasons why.
A coworker of mine, makes about 23K a year. She currently has 3 daughters in her household (and one is out of the house & has 2 different different kids by different fathers, and lives off of our tax money). This coworker also has a working husband, however he is a “chef” in a bar, who grills burgers- who makes 12 dollars an hour CASH (24K a year). So on her taxes she claims a family of 5 living off of 23 K a year. Needless to say at tax time she gets a REFUND of 11,000! So basically she is ‘BEING PAID’ to NOT better herself. when all is said and done, they make nearly 60K a year after their tax handout. Not to mention her daughter gets financial aid at our community college-and got 2000 extra a semester, than what her classes cost.
Moral of the story- why should hard workers have to support this? Just because we make more…doesnt mean we should pay more.
When this same lady was considering college(which she would have gotten FOR FREE)- to be a medical transcriptionist (which would pay about 20K more a year)…she opted against it because “she would miss her daughters 7th grade basketball games” …i mean..theres nothing like giving up the opportunity to better yourself-since your daughter wouldnt have 5 more years of basketball games to play in….. and heaven forbid maybe having to give up that extra 11K that you didnt even earn!
I totally have no problem paying taxes- (for schools, roads, to help people who are TEMPORARILY having a hard time) I just dont think that some people should be paying ALOT…and those who dont pay taxes, pocketing it.
I think those people in america at the “bottom” have the most OPPORTUNITY to make it to the TOP!
December 1st, 2009 at 9:13 pm
People not making enough money to pay taxes, aren’t “pocketing” whatever subsidies they do get. They’re spending it so they can at least try to stay alive, and in a position to move up (not living in squalor in the streets for example).
Progressive tax rates make sense when the budget’s needs aren’t being met. The reason is very simple, in that the amount of money a person needs to live will generally remain constant between incomes, but when someone earns less it becomes less viable to actually get by if you’re paying the same rate.
It’s not fair, and it’s not right, but the difference needs to be made up somewhere: that’s where inflated rates for higher earners, who should be able to afford it and still have more resources than those that can’t, come in. However all that said, the IRS, and many budget expenses, are a bit crooked in how they handle things.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:32 pm
With all this angst about taxing, I’m surprised no one has mentioned the FAIRTAX.
step 1 – repeal the 16th amendment
step 2 – eliminate the IRS
step 3 – pay every wage earner 23% of the Federal poverty level
step 4 – eliminate all payroll, corporate and Social Security taxes
step 5 – institute a 23% sales tax on all new products sold in the US.
details @ FAIRTAX.ORG
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:05 am
Just a few additional thoughts:
1) “Fair” is where you take you pig to get a ribbon.
2) There will never be a flat tax due to the inability to get a majority in congress on this subject AND the fact that congress just can’t seem to decrease the budget no matter how much it makes sense.
I personally don’t mind the marginal tax rate system we have, despite the fact that I am paying in absurd amounts. The only thing that makes sense in this climate is to shrink the budget (see #2) to closely approximate what is currently being raised. If my taxes have to go up a modest amount to cover reasonable expenses, fine. As long as we do not move up into the oppressive tax rates of 42% and higher for ANYONE, I’m fine with it. Above that discourages economic growth.
Lastly, the liberals behind the proposed “share the sacrifice” legislation that adds 1% tax for those making from $30000-$150,000, and a 5% added tax for income above $150,000 to pay for the wars we are in is patently absurd. It is a ploy to get more money to support their liberal socialistic programs that are part of the whole Obama deception.
While we are at it, we had better nuke this global treaty nonsense that is designed to destroy our constitution and our nation as a super power….but I digress.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:40 am
As a former US Marine, I feel I have a right to state a matter of fact that I’ve lived both extremes of the current tax code shortcomings. I joined the Marines due to the simple fact that my family and I couldn’t afford college and I didn’t want to continue working in a grocery store the rest of my life (not that there’s anything wrong with that but I wanted a bigger piece of “The American Dream”). In the Marines, I lived off approximately $300 a month back in the early 90’s. While the Marines provided me a place to stay (with two other roommates in a 400 sq ft single room), and as much food as I could stomach from the Mess Hall, trust me, $300 went quick.
Enter 1998 after honorably serving 8 years in the Marines and learning a trade along the way. I separated from the Marines making over $100K per year and paying more in Federal taxes the first year I was a civilian then I made in total income as a Marine the year prior. Initially I was so amazed at my new income level I didn’t pay a lot of attention to what I was now paying as “my fair share” for an American citizen who honorably sacrificed 8 years to protect the freedoms that all Americans EQUALLY enjoy!
Since separating from the Marines I have started a family, successfully advanced my career and have become more and more irritated by our current progressive tax system. I am now staring at 33% of my families income being sent to our government coffers based on a tax code that takes an estimated 100,000 employees at the IRS to manage, audit, maintain, etc. Add on top of that the 3rd party tax code benefactors such as organizations like HR-Block, TurboTax, the plethora of tax lawyers, etc and the basic costs of our current tax system becomes astronomical. And I shouldn’t fail to mention the indirect, but relevant taxpayer costs for Congress to debate and update the tax code every year and the powerful lobbyists that promote their own tax code agendas.
That being said, I was taught in the Marines, if you have a problem, don’t just B1tch, provide a solution! At this point, the best solution I’ve found is hxxp://fairtax dot com. It is a grass roots organization that has done some serious homework on what works for both lower income Americans and those that have been lucky enough to live the American dream to become higher income earners. While the system may not be perfect, it is by far the fairest alternative to our current system I have seen. I encourage every American that I spent 8 years protecting whether you knew it or not to take a look at the details of Fairtax and judge for yourselves whether you believe this system is better then our current convoluted, corrupt and outdated tax code.
While I am a Marine, American and Patriot at heart, I know that throughout the course of our great nation’s history, it is up to the individual citizen to not only question our government but to ensure that our voice is heard. To quote a scene from one of my favorite movies, The American President, Martin Sheen in the Oval Office states: “The President doesn’t answer to you Lewis!” This is followed by in my opinion Michael J Fox’s best scene ever where he responds with “Oh yes he does AJ, I’M a citizen, this is MY president, and in this country, it is not only permissible to question our leaders, it is our responsibility…”
So I’d like to challenge each of you reading this ask your fellow American to get involved, fix the significant issues facing our country today starting with our tax code, and don’t let the sacrifices of our forefathers, fellow Marines that served before me, and those that are protecting our freedoms today to go unappreciated and more importantly unearned!
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:45 am
It is always the young kids and jealous malcontents that want the “so called” rich to pay more than their fair share. These people then grow up, and (some of them) end up earning a decent living and get charged high tax rates. Boy do they whine then!
Well, we live in a capitalist country and that isn’t about to change for a very long time. Get used to it. Under a capitalist system, you have people who do better and worse than the norm. It’s called a system of incentives – whereby there is a big incentive to do well and succeed in life. No, there is nothing wrong with being successful.
If you don’t have those incentives, i.e. – people who earn more get taxes into the toilet, etc. – then things end up going nowhere. No one tries to do well – after all, there is no incentive. No one is there to hire you – they sit back and do nothing just like everyone else. Eventually everyone is sitting around doing nothing and the society goes broke.
Socialism has rarely survived in any reasonable form for a decent sized country for more than a short time. Eventually the incentive become corruption. Then you live in a place like China.
So please wake up, stop looking for a free lunch and have everyone else pay for what you don’t want to pay for. The well-off pay more than their fair share. If you were in their shoes, you would know it. But its easier to whine and say that certain people have it better than you do – and that they should be made to pay. Calm down – or you may end up in a long line just to buy bread.
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:46 pm
I agree with those who are saying if you want to make more money put the effort in. I grew up poor, was a teenage mother and decided I didn’t want to end up on welfare. I was raised to believe that public assistance was temporary and not a way of life. So I went to college, earned bachelors and masters degrees and a professional certification. I did all of this so that I could provide for myself and my child. I have worked very hard so yes, it iritates me, when socialists want to “redistribute” my wealth. I was held accountable for my actions (getting pregnant in high school) why shouldn’t other people be accountable for their actions and decisions?
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Screw the IRS thiefs…they steal our money to mess up the country even more
and since now the US has become a communist socialist evil country who is hungry for money to use to torwards wars, weapons and all that
I am getting ready to throw away my american citizenship and live elsewhere where people are not treated like criminals and a country who actually dont steal your hard earned money
December 4th, 2009 at 10:28 am
WOW, some people need to read how Rome fell. Taxing the rich and giving free rides to the poor is a system setup for failure. Why try to get rewards from hard work when it is taken away from you. I have come from eating out of dumpsters to fall into the 25% tax bracket. How about hard work and education?! It’s out there, go get it.
December 4th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Having these income tax brackets makes me want to work LESS, not more. My productivity is reduced, as is my desire to professionally excell, because as soon as I start to make just a little bit more money, my tax rate would jump from 15 to 25%. That’s ridiculous. Where’s the incentive to be productive? To work hard? To keep your money? Why on earth would I want to apply myself when the government will take an additional 10% of it? That would move me backward financially, which is exactly how our government thinks.
December 4th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
I am not sure that all of the tax rates in this site are correct? I thought the rates were going to go back to the place they were when Bush LOWERED them??? I thought the 25% rate was to go back to 28% Etc. Also I thought the 15% rate on Capital gains was to go back to 20%???? I hope you guys are right and you did your homework. I put in a new AC $5,500 and you would have to be a political Tax expert to figure out the new form 5695 “Residential Energy Credits”. I guess I will have to hire someone to do my taxes this year.
December 6th, 2009 at 1:10 am
You are correct about the rates going back to the pre-Bush tax cuts. That will occur in 2011. The rates are subject to change, though, based on whatever congress and the president determine.
Kinda warms your heart, don’t it?
December 6th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
I do agree that the jumps are a little much, and not be such a huge difference. The gap from making a little pif of money to just little bit more than that should not be that big, and the difference from making nothing to making the most should not be nearly as big as it is, and the difference’s should be way way smaller.
With that being said, if you make more money you should pay more in taxes. Everbody is not given the same opportunities. I’m in college working 80 hours a week most weeks, I work everyday and yet I still come to struggle when it comes time to make things work since the price of school keeps going up, and financial aid doesn’t cover my tuition, plus I have to buy books, and I have rent to pay plus a car and that insurance. I can’t get a loan because my parents refuse to co-sign, and the school wont give me any more money because my parents make to much money. I also have to pay more in taxes than many people because I have two jobs that I work at full time.
If you make more money then you have the luxury to many thing those of us who work harder just to get through school, many of the kids who go to school are not lazy, and need help to continue education to make more money because parent’s can’t always do it for them. Since many of those in lower income areas taking out more taxes will nto help them. If you are so worried that you money is getting taken because you make more money then stop spending money on things you don’t need, nobody needs to live in huge houses with personal showers and 6 bedroom, unless you have five kids, nobody needs 5 cars, and nobody needs movie theaters in their damn house. If you can afford things like these than you can afford to pay a little extra to those who are also working hard and many doing actual physical labor and not getting the money they should for the jobs that they do.
Notice those who have some of the most stressful jobs in the world (social workers, those who take care of those with disabilities, child care, etc.) get paid the least amount of money, and they should be getting paid a lot more for what they do, they wipe people’s butts, get things thrown at them, get yelled at all day, and get paid shit. People who work these jobs should get more money, and while they don’t get more money they shouldn’t have to pay as much in taxes, esp. since they do a lot more work than some of the really rich people out there who jus happen to be born into money.
We are not all given the same chances in life, we are not all given the same opportunities to make money to get wealthy, it’s not even close. Many people have to work the butts off just to make a little bit of money, and go into huge debt while trying to make it through college. Yet there are some people out there who get everything handed to them on a silver platter, they get the nice cars, go to the best schools at no cost to them all because their parents have money. When these people are done with school they have no debt to pay back and they probably still have a nice car to drive, and parents to pay their bills til they find a job.
My parents both work and make a very good living for themselves, but they don’t help me at all, I have to pay for everything I want, including school, a kinda of crappy car, and a place to live, they wont even cosign a loan for me to finish up school. Yes i know I have a greater chance after school of getting a better job and will have to pay more taxes then I do now, but I expect to have to pay more, I know what is coming, and I am ok with it because I know it’s coming, and I know it’s going to happen. If I ever make enough money to have to pay more in taxes, I will not bitch like all of you richer people now. Just be glad you are making enough money to support you family in a better way than those who can, be happy you made yourself successful.
So all you richer people out there, suck it up and pay it, although I would argue on your side that the difference shouldn’t be as large as it is at all.
December 8th, 2009 at 1:00 am
ASDF, I hope you understand that not being handed everything simply makes you stronger. Busting your butt and driving a “crappy car” will serve you better in the future. I know as I’ve been there. Don’t worry about the silver spoon folks. Most of them reveal their weaknesses and fail to excel.
It is quite interesting that some people are not in favor of oppressively high tax rates unless the tastes of those high earners include indulgences like “movie theaters in their damn house”. Have you ever considered that all of those indulgences create jobs in manufacturing, sales, installation, etc. This is America. At least for now you can spend your money the way you want. Who cares what the spend it on if they can afford it! Perhaps you would prefer a national sales tax instead of income tax.
Most everyone on this blog is focused on what is “fair”. Fair is far from being an absolute as it is perhaps the most subjective concept in history. That is why I have always said “Fair is where you take your pig to get a ribbon”.
Every nation has to decide what its priorities will be (what is fair). Conservative capitalists favor little government and low taxes. That formula has given us the greatest growth and wealth years in the history of the world. Naysayers, the moonbats of the left like Pelosi and company, believe big government is necessary because we Americans are just too stupid to make good decisions. They want to control everything about our lives and that takes big time tax collection, which of course, kills small business and therefore kills job creation. Of course, every program the government creates is an abysmal economic disaster. The best thing the federal government can do is ensure that we are militarily defended, then get the hell out of the way.
This is not rocket science. We must have low tax rates to increase disposable income and stimulation of the economy. We must have low taxes on small businesses to encourage the hiring of more workers.
Before you bash the rich, keep this in mind: No one ever got a job from a poor guy.
December 8th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
lolalarvale, a corporation that produces goods or services for sale to customers does not pay any taxes. When a corporation is charged a tax, that company simply includes it in the cost doing business and passes it on to its customers in the form on higher prices for its products. If they didn’t do this, they would not be able to stay in business.
Since these corporate taxes end up being added to the price of products provided by these companies, they are in fact a hidden sales tax. Since this tax is hidden in the price of the product, in many states customers end up paying additional sales tax on this hidden tax. Even if your state exempts food and prescription drugs from sales taxes, you still end up paying this hidden sales tax on food and drugs because the companies that produce them are not exempt from corporate taxes.
Corporate income taxes are nothing more than a cruel hoax perpetrated by dishonest politicians on ignorant voters in order to convince them that the “evil, rich corporations” are being forced to pay their share of the tax burden, when in fact, the public ends up paying those corporate taxes.
December 9th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Ok, I get it. Let’s penalize those that work their tails off and are successful by raising their tax rate. Then let’s give it to the those that don’t want to better themselves and get a free ride. Thanks Washington!
December 9th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Two more good reasons for the FairTax!
The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 296) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.
The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.
The FairTax:
Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Allows American products to compete fairly
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Abolishes the IRS
December 10th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
For more than a century it’s been generally recognized that the best taxes are progressive– that is, proportionate to income.
Lately, however, it’s become fashionable to question this. Republican leaders have trotted out the idea of a flat tax, meaning a fixed percentage of income tax levied on everyone. A single amount that everyone must pay.
Isn’t that more fair? Shouldn’t everyone pay the same amount?
In a word– no. It’s not more fair; it’s appallingly unfair. Why? The rich should pay more taxes, because the rich get more from the government.
Consider the defence bufget, for example. Defending the country benefits everyone, but it benefits the rich more, because they have more to defend. It’s the same principle as insurance: if you have a bigger house or a fancier car, you pay more to insure it.
Social security payments, which makes up another good chunk of the budget, are dependent on income– if you’ve put more into the system, you get higher payments when you retire.
Investments in the nation’s infrastructure– transportation, education, research & development, energy, police subsidies, the courts, etc.– again are more useful the more you have. The interstates and airports benefit interstate commerce and people who can travel, not ghetto dwellers. Energy is used disproportionately by the rich and by industry.
As for public education, the better public schools are the ones attended by the moderately well off. The very well off ship their offspring off to private schools; but it is their companies that benefit from a well-educated public. (If you don’t think that’s a benefit, go start up an engineering firm, or even a factory, in El Salvador. Or Watts.)
The FDIC and the S&L bailout obviously most benefit investors and large depositors. A neat example: a smooth operator bought a failing S&L for $350 million, then received $2 billion from the government to help resurrect it.
Beyond all this, the federal budget is top-heavy with corporate welfare. Counting tax breaks and expenditures, corporations and the rich snuffle up over $400 billion a year– compare that to the $1400 budget, or the $116 billion spent on programs for the poor.
Where’s all that money go? There’s direct subsidies to agribusiness ($18 billion a year), to export companies, to maritime shippers, and to various industries– airlines, nuclear power companies, timber companies, mining companies, automakers, drug companies. There’s billions of dollars in military waste and fraud. And there’s untold billions in tax credits, deductions, and loopholes. Accelerated depreciation alone, for instance, is estimated to cost the Treasury $37 billion a year– billions more than the mortgage interest deduction. (Which itself benefits the people with the biggest mortgages. But we should encourage home ownership, shouldn’t we? Well, Canada has no interest deduction, but has about the same rate of home ownership.)
For more, see Mark Zepezauer and Arthur Naiman’s informative little book, ‘Take the Rich Off Welfare’.
How about social spending? Well, putting aside the merely religious consideration that the richest nation on the planet can well afford to lob a few farthings at the hungry, I’d argue that it’s social spending– the New Deal– that’s kept this country capitalistic. Tempting as it is for the rich to take all the wealth of a country, it’s really not wise to leave the poor with no stake in the system, and every reason to agitate for imposing a new system of their own. Think of social spending as insurance against violent revolution– and again, like any insurance, it’s of most benefit to those with the biggest boodle.
A flat tax for all? These proposals need to be absorbed with a carload of salt.
A plan where everyone’s taxes are lowered is of course simply a tax cut. Here, once again, the question to ask as a voter and citizen is, what government services do you want to cut? You don’t hear proposing to slash corporate welfare or defense. It’s more likely a way to attempt to cut social spending through the back door. People like to hear about tax cuts; they don’t like to hear about service cuts, even though they’re financially equivalent.
A revenue-neutral plan won’t change total receipts any– it’ll just redistribute it. Here you have to ask, who gets shafted?
You can’t exactly make the poor pay more taxes– they don’t have the money. That leaves only one way to flatten the tax rates– that is, reduce the taxes the rich pay: soak the middle class. If tax rates go down on the rich, and we’re not cutting total taxes, the middle classes have to pay more.
So, others want the government, already pretty much a subsidiary of the large corporations, to be subsidized even more by the rest of us. About all I can say is, if the American people are stupid enough to swallow this, they deserve to pay for it.
This is pretty shameless, but it’s much of a piece with Republican practice in general. For years some nosy folks have been investigating what states pay the most to the federal government, and which states get the most benefits back. What a surprise: the biggest winners are the western and southern states that vote Republican; the biggest losers are the northeastern states that vote Democratic. Those who whine the most about taxes are those who suck the most from the public trough.
Some won’t be happy, I suppose, until they can reconstitute a truly medieval system, in which the nobles pay no taxes at all.
Exercises for the ‘Cry Me A River’ reader:
1. Write a rebuttal justifying the corporate subsidy of your choice, respecting the conservative principle that the tax system cannot be used for social engineering.
2. Write a homily, suitable for use in Sunday school, explaining why Jesus should have condemned the sheep who demeaned the poor by feeding and clothing them, and blessed the rich man for living in splendor while Lazarus suffered.
3. Take your favorite flat tax proposal and your last 1040, and have your acountant calculate how much money it will save you. Find the names of the five or six middle-class people who will have to make up that shortfall, and write them a nice thank-you note.
4.Compare the GNP with the rate of taxation over the last fifty years– e.g. the boom years of the ’50s with their 90% marginal tax rate– and practice explaining that high tax rates discourage investment until you can do it with a straight face.
December 11th, 2009 at 11:49 am
“because the rich get more from the government.”
I chuckled. How do you even respond to something like that?
Anyway, no one is arguing that the “rich” (love that term) shouldn’t pay more. Under a flat, progressive, sales whatever tax system, that would be the case.
What I think most responsible, productive Americans are upset about is that the goverment wastes hundreds of billions of dollars each year on leaches to the system that are undeserving of others charity. And in doing so, they create this “institutionalized” poverty and government dependence for tens of millions of Americans (and illegal aliens). The actual dollar amount is irrelevant. If they somehow taxed another 5 Trillion out of the “rich” they would just waste it with the only certainties being more poor and dependent and a larger government intruding in our lives.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
This is a follow up from the US Marine Private turned 33% who posted earlier in this thread.
To Oh Boo Hoo… Check your logic before you make assertions that don’t hold water.
“Consider the defence bufget, for example. Defending the country benefits everyone, but it benefits the rich more, because they have more to defend. It’s the same principle as insurance: if you have a bigger house or a fancier car, you pay more to insure it.”
- Since when is FREEDOM valued differently for any American? I served this country for 8 years and I can assure you that at no time during my service did I consider I was protecting “the rich” more then “those with less wealth”. Furthermore, I can assure you that IF our homeland was ever threatened directly via invasion, you would not find our military protecting the assets of “rich” over the assets of others. Instead, as The Marines have done for 234 years, we would be protecting the freedoms of EVERY AMERICAN as laid out in the Constitution and the ideals of our forefathers.
- Your insurance principal simply doesn’t hold water. While those with more expensive houses & cars do pay more for Insurance in actual dollar values the percentile they pay relative to the value of their asset IS THE SAME for everyone with a policy from that company in that geographic market.
“Social security payments, which makes up another good chunk of the budget, are dependent on income– if you’ve put more into the system, you get higher payments when you retire.”
- Again, your argument doesn’t hold weight as a comparison to the current progressive income tax system. Every American is taxed an equal percentage up to the current limits of the Social Security system. While that may result in a different dollar contribution, the bottom line is the percentage is the same. The payments from Social Security are again equally proportionate to the amount paid into the system based on lifetime contributions from the SAME Social Security tax rate for every American.
“Energy is used disproportionately by the rich and by industry. ”
- Once again, you mistakenly try to illustrate that additional consumption equates to a justification to tax “the rich” disproportionally. Energy is charges to every American at the SAME RATE based on their location. The more you use, the more you pay. The power company doesn’t require W-2’s from residents to determine what to charge them based on a progressive scale per kilowatt hour.
Bottom line, your examples reflect nothing more then a variability in the actual dollar amounts paid by those that have more wealth compared to those that have less. In each of your examples however the “percentile of liability” is EQUAL across the spectrum of income. Conversely, and the point of my original post is that our current personal Income Tax system is unfair since it disproportionately taxes higher income Americans relative to those with less wealth thereby creating a disincentive to live the AMERICAN DREAM! You examples even further prove through various situations where a proportionate liability is fair such as a flat consumption tax similar to the Fairtax. Higher income earners are still taxed more in dollar figures because they generally consume more but there is no additional liability or should I say penalty for excuse the term, “getting off your butt and doing something with your life” (aka Living the American Dream!).
December 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
You socialist should all just die soon if not quicker.
Do you idiots understand that most of the jobs are created by small buisiness and that small buisinesses have good years and bad years??? And when a buisness has a good year and pays out so much of its earning so that Wig-gers can get free money without working for it. The good years dont last and so the small buisness must survive for 1, 2, who know maybe 3 years on previous earning. All I know is I will fire every liberal idiot I identify. I will not hire any democrat or liberal ever, so there you go dumb lucks. And yes luck should have started with an F.
You people Buck. Oh an S should have been in there.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
December 14th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
If this blog is going to continue, it must remain civil. I am a capitalist through and through, but I stand by the rights of others to speak their minds. If we are not tolerant of other views, then we are just as bad as the dictators that our President admires. Indeed these are incredibly difficult times, the times our forefathers have said “try men’s souls”. The least we as citizens can do is avoid stooping to the low brow tactics of Mr. Frank, Mr. Ayers, Mr. Soros and Ms. Pelosi amongst others.
If you really want to do something about the liberal takeover of our country, then contact your congressmen. If you don’t know how, go to http://www.grassfire.org and join the movement to take back our freedom while it still exists. Otherwise you are just flagellating in the breeze.
As for taxes, the current tax system is about as fair as any we have seen in this country. If the rates are simply left as they are, we can live with them. The trouble is, we are being led by irresponsible spenders on both sides of the aisle. Time to extricate the irresponsible big government proponents and find some true small government thinkers who can pay the bills with the taxes we already pay.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Interesting debate. Those objecting to the idea of a flat tax, understand that there are many examples of how to do this, and some of them actually revolve around a consumption tax, rather than based purely on income.
It is quite simple to add a touch of progressive taxation to a flat tax, by not taxing expenses for primary residence, as an example (this would be an improvement over our current “progressive” tax system).
One of the central problems with our current system is the fact that your income doesn’t take into account the context in which you live. Living in Los Angeles, it’s impossible to find a two bedroom for under around $1500 (unless you want to live in a location that puts your family in danger). The same apartment in the Chicago suburbs I can get for $1000. If I lived in Iowa City? Significantly less than that. But if I’m making $50K, the federal government will tax me the same in any of those locations. That’s patently unfair, as the person living in Iowa City is indeed making an excellent living, whereas the same person making that in Los Angeles will be scraping by.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Chris, yours is an interesting argument. Of course, we all choose where we live to one extent or another. That simple fact puts a different spin on the “fair” concept.
I am not opposed to overhauling the system. I know that I would benefit tremendously from the flat tax system. Unfortunately, that flat percentage would have to be considerably higher than most proponents have suggested. The trouble is, our leaders have placed us in a 14 trillion dollar hole that needs to be filled with tax money or our way if life is over. That means more than a “touch” of progressive tax.
The solution is to stop chasing programs with more tax. Instead of passing these ridiculous job and growth killing bills such as expensive health care and cap and trade, we must look at what is reasonable to collect from the citizens and cut government programs to fit the budget. In reality, we should make government expenses come in at 500 billion LESS than what is collected in taxes and put that money toward the deficit each year.
I am outraged that the liberal press is not making this the lead story every day until it is resolved. Instead it is all about promoting the leftist agenda to expand government while they still can and to hell with America as we know it. These people don’t care about our country or it would be the top priority of all in power. Now I know the republicans were big spenders this decade and guilty of raising the deficit, but the democrats are spenders on steroids.
If you want to keep much of what you make, encourage as many of your friends to contact their congressmen and promise them that you will only support them if they turn their support away from reckless spending, and pay down the deficit. If you don’t do anything, you will have to accept part of the blame for the demise of our country when the dollar collapses and we are reduced to global mediocrity.
December 18th, 2009 at 9:16 am
I’ve never hated a president as much as I hate the piece of garbage in office right now. What happened to the “your taxes won’t go up if you make under $250,000 as an individual”?! What an effing liar…LIAR LIAR LIAR. So not only are our taxes going up, our deductions have NO CHANGE.
December 18th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Cogipro:
It’s interesting that you mentioned that $500 Billion surplus figure. I have been advocating that exact same approach for a couple of years. Written to more than a few memembers of Congress proposing it. Why? I have no idea. It will never happen.
But imagine if it did? It would still take us over a generation but we could eliminate the National Debt entirely. Could the Govt cut $500B a year. It sure as Hell could. And I’d be an equal opportunity cutter. Has to be bipartisan. Take it from the Military. Take it from Farm subsidies. And take a hell of a lot from Foreign Aid, social programs and the general size of government. It could be some President’s Apollo Program. “I have a dream that a child born today will graduate college and enter workplace in an America that is free from the shackles of Debt….”
Imagine what this country could do with no National Debt. It boggles the mind. However, it is a pipe dream. The very sad fact is that it will never happen. Seems you and I are the only ones talking about it and even if a politician did champion the idea he would be brutalized by the Media and special interests until he quit and went home.
Unfortunatly it is much more likely that one day we will just default on this debt. And that is the day the “shining city on the hill” falls off the cliff and goes the way of Atlantis.
I guess America had a pretty good run…but it was much shorter than it should have been.
December 21st, 2009 at 1:38 am
The “Right” still wants its Medicare and SS, and its world empire. The “Left” wants it all. The Libertarian Party might save us, but methinks Armageddon and austerity for All Americans will come first. The Light will come, but not before we have seen the Depths of Hell.
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:13 am
If you think it is bad this year, come back NEXT year!
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:22 am
If you have a flat tax then the GOVERNMENT will have to spend what they get then they could’t BLOW all that money, live week to week like us!
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I don’t have any answers, just opinions.
My husband and I work hard at our full-time jobs, but we still do not make alot of money. Our educations allow for better wages, but with the job market what it is we consider ourselves lucky to have A job, and have accepted the pay cuts as a small price to pay for having ANY job. We will probably fall in the 15% tax bracket, which is not bad, we will survive it.
And Really, I don’t care what other people make or pay. I’m doing my share and I just wish everyone else was too. Too many people are in our country that are not here legally and are burdening the system (I do not forget those that are here legally and are also burdens to the system). If everyone pulled their weight, whatever amount it was, this situation would not be as disportionate as it seems.
December 22nd, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Gwen, you are a communist.
December 22nd, 2009 at 5:08 pm
All comments interesting. I talked to a Canadian couple who pay 51% in taxes. They mentioned this nonchalantly…..kind of like the frog in boiling water! Yes, even we can become accustomed to being ’screwed’, and think there is no other way. By the way, this couple paid extra money for private health care when needed!! If I remember correctly, wasn’t there some big uproar in the 18th century in this country about “taxation without representation”? Certainly there is no constituent representation now (health care reform an example), so why do citizens continue to go along with increasing taxes; federal, state, local? These folks who say it’s OK to tax those with money don’t have a clue. All have to be government workers, don’t you think? We are indeed sheep who get what we deserve, unless we get rid of the leeches in D.C. and start over.
December 24th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Many of our ills would go away if prudence were the policy of the day. If I ruled the USA, for starters I would:
(1) Return politics to a service industry with a ten year total onetime limit overall; the public would determine what a livable stipend would be for the period
(2) Strip away all airline, farm, auto etc. business subsidies & bailouts
(3) Make all politicians abide by the same health care/pension/social security/tax policies by which all other Americans live
(4) Stop awarding citizenship to every living being who happens to breathe American air on the day of birth
(5) Boot out all illegals (kids born here go with their illegal parents) with a comprehensive national sweep, coupled with generating a truly thoughtful immigration policy geared toward true need; only illegals serving in the military on our behalf would get amnesty, humanitarian [dire medical] cases would be reviewed for temporary stay considerations
(6) Stop all govt support of ‘making things fair or equal’ programs so charities can take up the slack
(7) Dump the idiot now in the WH who has a G-D complex and cannot get enough of himself so he shares himself 24 hours a day with all of us, and replace with a true patriotic leader who feels the USA is surely the greatest nation on earth, remembers how it got that way and preserves it without changing its underlying foundations–and without apologizing to the world for our existence and successes
(8) First and foremost, support our military
(9) Add line item veto power to the executive office
(10) Create elections focused on issues and not on candidates – no individual campaigning allowed, no donations – no 2-party system which has devolved into failure
(11) Benefits including but not limited to health, pensions, vacations, holidays or bonuses for public sector jobs at every level to be set by the taxpayers
JUST A START…
December 25th, 2009 at 8:14 am
I have read this page this early morning of Christmas, and I understand both sides
of this debate. My sister, who worked hard in school, put herself though college and
found a great job makeing 100k or more is part of the *rich* people everyone is fussing about here.
Me, on the other hand, got an education and work in a factory in my town, making
around 30k a year.
This does not mean I think my sister, who wanted more out of life, should pay for me,
or that she should pay for my healthcare or all the other things the goverment is going
after the *rich* for supposely.
I work, I pay my own way, and that makes me proud.
I dont agree that those people who sit around and say to the goverment give me give me, and the goverment is more then happy to provide for them. That is what makes me mos upset.
I know in this econmy there are those out of work, not by choice, and those are not who I speak of. I speak of the welfare generations of familys, who, that is their JOB.
I agree with z-man on the start all over theory….only, I figure by the time they get
into office, there has been so much backscrathing, that whatever good intention they
had…….is covered up by *You owe Me*
I am not sure of the solution, to the problem, but I am pretty sure it is not socialism..
thanks for listening
December 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
My friend you are not rich man government is not your friend. Do you contribute money in their campaign? If president, house of rep and senate think like you think we do not have problem every body in U.S.A is happy. We trust two face people and elect them. They don’t care for you they only care for their pocket
December 28th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
I am interested in seeing last year aggragate taxes paid by each income level. I am thinking the rich don’t actually live pay check to pay check and can afford to manage their money in ways that take advantage of the books and books and tax code or potential write-offs. What percentage of total income, before any write-offs or deductions did each segment pay in taxes on average?
December 28th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
Got news for you, Dustin. There are no tax breaks for high income earners, unless you count our government officials who just don’t pay their taxes. It seems you can’t swing a dead cat in D.C. without hitting an elected official who should be in prison for tax evasion. We usually find out who they are when they are vying for an appointment by the White House.
As far as your run of the mill high income earner is concerned, it is impossible to get a “write-off” as the ‘Alternative Minimum Tax’ kicks in for everyone who attempts to claim large deductions. The AMT negates any deductions that lower ones tax bill below a certain level.
For example, a wage earner making say $550,000 is going to pay about $165,000+ in Federal taxes alone. He can’t get out of it because the AMT cancels out deductions, and the exemptions for dependents go away with increases in income. That is roughly 30% of his gross income. On average, state taxes will equal about $33,000. Then there is FICA and medicare tax totaling about $18000. That comes to about $216,000 in just Fed/FICA/Medicare/State income taxes. That comes in at 40% of his gross income.
Whether a person lives pay check to pay check is a function of lifestyle, not income. Most everyone in this country spends more as they make more. One reason we are in the national economic pickle we are in is that the people have followed the government’s lead in spending MORE than what is earned/collected. So, pay check to pay check? That is a personal choice. Not a good one, but a choice nonetheless.
I know that many folks look at the above example and say: Wow. That leaves a whopping $330,000 to spend. Sure enough. And that is as good as it will get, and the party is over. Under Obama’s/Liberals’ Plan, The $550,000 earner’s total tax (F/F/M/S) will likely top out at around $300,000 or 56% in taxes. Now isn’t that one hell of an incentive for people to work hard? Who wants to bust his tail to get to this high income level only to keep 44% percent of it?
Kill the individual with taxes and you kill the country. That is EXACTLY what Obama and his robotic followers will do unless they are stopped.
December 29th, 2009 at 2:18 am
Responding to Dustin, a person making $195k per year, with 25k in deductions (mostly charity) pays over $40,000 in Federal Tax….which equates to 25%.
He is correct that a person who makes this type of annual wage should not have to live paycheck to paycheck. Only by poor money management or bad decisions should this occur. However, those who don’t make this much money don’t pay 25% of every extra dollar they make, and those who make significantly more pay an increased percentage in tax, according to the system we now have, and unfortunately, we will all pay more to fund this Administration’s proposed programs.
In this particular example, there is a significant amount given to others (charities) that demonstrates a degree of generosity. Some who make far less give even a larger percentage of their income to charitible organizations, which shows not just a greater desire to help their fellow man, but perhaps even better money management skills and not living beyond their means. It may not be germane to this issue, but our current President gave less than $100 to help his fellow man.
I personally believe living “beyond one’s means” is the major problem many have. Failure to save, failure to manage money, failure to put one’s life in proper perspective regarding age and occupational volatility, seems to me to lead to a “class envy” or “coveting” attitude. I see this first hand in the Health Reform issue. I spent 27 years in the military, many years flying off aircraft carriers. I signed a contract with the U.S. Government to do so, and risked my life, sacrificed time away from family, and made less money than my peers. I did so because I felt a calling to it, and I did so knowing that if I made it to retirement age, I would be compensated with a small retirement and a good health care program. The government knew it wasn’t paying what I was worth, and they gave the health care in old age as a carrot. I tell you this because a relative of mine recently said that she deserved the same government health care I receive because she worked 11 years as a teacher. Where is her equity? She never spent 9 months each deployment away from her spouse and children, never hurled her body at the back end of a carrier at night, and never was shot at. People make career choices, which equate to consequences, at many junctures during life. I don’t belittle anyone who makes more money than I do, nor do I feel superior to someone who makes less. Our lives reflect the choices we make, in all aspects. And, regarding Health Care, it does need reform, but not in the manner thus proposed. My opinion.
Our tax system is progressive. Those who make more pay more. I personally feel a flat tax, with no loopholes, is a better means to finance our government. But the downturn in the economy has shown the true colors of the newest generation that have had to weather an economic storm. Many want to have someone else pay for their education, their home, and pay their bills. This was not the mindset a generation or two ago. By the way, I also run my own business. And if the Health Care Reform bill and Cap and Trade bills go as the Democrats envision, I will close my business doors. More jobs lost. There are basic business and economic principles that have been in place since bartering and the invention of coinage, and it is too bad this Administration does not understand them. This Administration has the lowest percentage (8%) of any administration in the history of our nation to have actually worked in the private sector. Too bad America. I can’t help but think the recent upturn in the economy would have happened sooner if left alone to correct itself. Certainly the billions in the Stimulus Package weren’t a catalyst. It’s time to wake up folks, and it may be too late.
December 30th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Nothing like taxes to generate responses short, long and passionate.
The big point that’s missing in most of this is the Constitution. Not surprising since few of our elected officials have read it to any detail.
The Constitution allows for the taxation of profit as associated with an enterprise or business. It has long been debated as to whether the Federal Income Tax is constitutional as it relates to personal income. Years of influence from big business and big industries (like Wall Street and Higher Education) have distorted the tax system and made a bad situation worse.
If anyone has seen Aaron Russo’s “America – Freedom To Fascism,” know what I’m talking about. And those who haven’t can contact me and I’ll send you a copy.
For those who are making $50K and paying 38% in taxes, it means you’re living in a City and State that is taxing you at over 13% or your employer is withholding too much. If they’re withholding too much you’re getting a decent refund. You can adjust your W-4 or move, if possible.
College can be a wonderful thing but the cost of it can be equally obscene. With Government pushing and promoting higher education for everyone and subsidizing loans, it has become a huge industry. Ultimately financed on the backs of those who can afford it the least. Graduates who pay their students loans are paying a higher interest to cover the cost of the lender for making loans to people who don’t pay them back. Does having a 6 figure debt to get a 5 figure job make a lot of sense? Then again we have elected officials who spend 7 figures to get a 6 figure job. But their “job” comes with benefits the majority of college graduated will never see.
Yes, it is a vicious cycle that is worthy of a “start over” consideration. But the Lehman/Bear Sterns fiasco represented the best opportunity for someone to say “This system might not be working” and it didn’t happen. We are a long way from changing things but it starts with us at the voting booth.
Keep voting out all incumbents, even the good ones. They can come back and get re-elected but we, the general population, need to send a message to the elected officials and that’s the only way I can think of getting their attention.
Having a revolving door in Congress will make the Lobbyists head spin. They won’t know who to go after since they’ll only be there for for a short time. No more career politicians in Congress for 30, 40 and 50 years or more. Once the power of the vote has been establish there might be some progress for the middle class. Lets hope there still is a middle class by the time that happens.
Happy New Year, everyone.
December 30th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Josh for president!
December 30th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I just checked and the top 5% of earners pay 60% of the income taxes. It seems fair enough. There is no easy solution as I believe people working smart and hard earn the right to their reward. I also sympathize with those less fortunate and am fine paying a higher level of taxes, thus I do not have a problem paying 28% on my final earnings. When my deductions start getting phased out, it starts to hit a little hard. Already 1/3 of my income goes to taxes and social security.
The real solution is to run the government more like business. The pork barrel projects to which Congress treats itself and government waste and entitlements are the real problem. Less spending is the answer, not taxing people up to half of their income. When tax rates reached higher levels historically, the economy stagnated as investment did as well.
December 30th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
This appears to be the perfect time to introduce the Congressional Reform Act of 2010. It is a reproduction of an email I received this week from a very thoughtful citizen.
1. Term Limits: 12 years only, one of the possible options below.
A. Two Six year Senate terms
B. Six Two year House terms
C. One Six year Senate term and three Two Year House terms
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
2. No Tenure / No Pension:
A congressman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they are out of office.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
3. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security:
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund moves to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, Congress participates with the American people.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, server your term(s), then go home and back to work.
4. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan just as all Americans.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
5. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
6. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
7. Congress must equally abide in all laws they impose on the American people.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
8. All contracts with past and present congressmen are void effective 1/1/11.
The American people did not make this contract with congressmen, congressmen made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
———————–
I could not agree more. Get the foxes out of the hen house and take away their key!
December 30th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
To cogipro – With all due respect that seems more of the same. Letting Government/Legialation take care of the problem.
I would prefer to return power to the people and have them implement the term limits every November.
Any legislation involving term limits would probably be lined with golden parachutes.
And we might even raise the level of awareness of our fellow voters.
December 31st, 2009 at 9:54 am
Thanks Joe. Between you , me and my closest family and friends I only need another 60,000,000 votes or so. It’s a start though!
December 31st, 2009 at 2:41 pm
I am sick from reading the posts from the liberal socialists. I went to law school and work for a non-profit. I want to do good for this world, so my income is greatly sacrificed. I won’t last much longer at my current job. Day in and day out, I see clients , who get my legal services for FREE, complain about how bad they have it. They rarely accept personal responisibility for their situation.
99% of the people in this country are where they are because of their own life choices. And don’t give me your psycho babble about your happy wife and kids – I have those too – but that doesn’t change the fact that I am an extremely angry person who no longer wants to give back to the general public. I mostly see people who don’t accept responsibility for their choices and then get angry/upset/etc (and I am supposed to “understand and empathize”) when they learn that the government won’t give them more money!!! I am happy with my personal life, but extraordinarily worried about more money being taken from my already small paycheck to give to people that refuse to take responsibility for themselves or take action to correct their own self-created misfortune.
If you don’t have money, it is very likely your own fault. There is only a very small percentage of people who don’t have money through no fault of their own (those born with disabilities….but most of those aren’t complaining, they are in state institutions that need the money MUCH MORE than YOU DO….but don’t worry, I know that you are greedy and won’t give it to them).
You probably lack responsibility in your personal spending and lack drive and determination at your job. That is why you are poor!
No person in this country deserves anything more than roads, police, military, a court system, and general laws for all to abide by. Essentially, you start with nothing, but in this country, you have the opportunity to do anything. If you want a free ride where someone tells you what to do and you put no effort into developing yourself, move to China, Cuba or any similar nation…..see you much better you are treated!
December 31st, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Has anybody but me noticed the new payroll withholding rates have gone UP?!! For the last several years, I have been in a 25% marginal bracket. If you look at the 2010 IRS Publication 15, I will be (same salary) in a 27% bracket. Why is nobody reporting this?
January 1st, 2010 at 12:08 pm
I am a former hardworking capitalist now retired and you Commies will get exactly what you deserve if you keep it up: No jobs and financial collapse. Uh, just keep current on your social security taxes for a few more years so I can live off you for a change, you lazy commies. The Commies need to stop whining and start a profitable business and don’t tell me you do not have the capital. Ever hear of “sweat equity”? Of course not. It sounds too much like work…freeloaders.
January 1st, 2010 at 2:13 pm
I agree with Marci for the most part but don’t agree with the stereotyping name calling.
There seems to be more and more of an entitlement attitude for many in this country. We could go a long way if everyone did take responsibility for themselves but much of that should start with Congress. They developed a financial system for themselves where they use the tax code to essentially buy votes. Many get re-elected because the bring money to their communities. Then many in their communities will whine about Government spending. So stop rewarding them and vote them out.
I have many elected officials in my area call themselves fiscal conservatives. Yet vote for every spending and stimulus package without giving any consideration on how to pay for it. They implement policies for short term gain (getting re-elected) that have long term harm. Congress has a 22% approval rating yet 62% of them get re-elected. I have no problem not voting for someone who talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk.
You want change, Vote Them All Out!
Happy New Year everyone.
January 1st, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Kudos to Marci!!!. I concur fully. The government responsibilities are exactly as you stated. Over stepping those responsibilities is just a political ploy to win over the “entitlement crowd” at the polls.
The entitlement mentality of the “needy” is WAY out of control. I am a physician. I recognized a year ago the need for more of my services for those who were losing their jobs and their health insurance. I started a free clinic one night a week for those who had lost their jobs since the fall of 2008. In order to select out for just those who had recently become unemployed, I required a note from their previous employer or a recent pay stub as the price for admission to the free clinic. The goal was to help the hard working folks in the community who, through no fault of their own, had lost their job and medical coverage. I knew from previous experience that opening it up to just anyone would attract a bevy of whiners and drug seekers.
Now, there are plenty of grateful people who are unfortunate whom I see in another free clinic setting away from my usual office. I have no qualms with most of those folks. However, there are numerous unmotivated lazy people out there who believe that the world owes them everything for which others work so hard.
For the record, the people who have used our year old free clinic for the unemployed have been amongst the most appreciative people I have ever met. They use the services as little as possible as they know there are plenty of others in need. In contrast to your clientele, these are people who just can’t wait to get back to work and contribute to their family and society.
I believe that Americans take care of their own quite well without the need for so many government “give away” programs. More programs means fostering laziness by disincentivizing the would-be worker and placing an oppressive burden on the taxpayers.
One more thing, Marci. You are doing admirable work for your fellow man. It is a shame that it has led to such burnout. Most people do, however, tend to value a service in accordance with how much they pay for it. Sure makes it hard to want to provide free service. Your burn-out is another example of that old adage “No good deed goes unpunished”.
January 1st, 2010 at 6:00 pm
MarkA – It seems the Pub 15 tables are a little squirrely with the %’s going 25 to 27 to 30 then back to 28 and then to 33. Might be our friends way to improve their cash flow while debating the outcome the expiring tax cuts from 10 years ago. Should be interesting.
Bottom line is the income tax rates haven’t changed so as long as you file your return you shouldn’t have to pay any more than what the tax tables say. You could amend your W-4 to offset Pub 15.
January 1st, 2010 at 6:12 pm
A new year but no shortage of hypocrisy and BS.
Capitalist Pig – Working for a paycheck doesn’t make you a Capitalist. Share with us you definition of a Capitalist that prompted you to assume you are one.
No one has a choice when it comes to paying their SS taxes, the employer is forced to withhold it.
You don’t have a problem with SS taxes as long as “I can live off you.” Nice.
And as far as a financial collapse, see 2008. If you think your so called “commies” were the cause if it, do further research and step away from the cool aid bar.
You may be more of a commie than those you accuse.
January 1st, 2010 at 6:14 pm
cogipro – You are an example of what makes this a great country and the world a better place to live. Keep up the great work.
For 2010, I hope your spirit inspires many, myself included, to do more and/or do better.
Happy New Year!
January 3rd, 2010 at 12:18 pm
On Dec24, 2009, The United States of American began its death spiral and a new country emerged. The United Socialist States of America. Yes, we have been fundamentally changed. The single largest legislation that will effect all people in this country was written in secret, passed without being read and debated before the American people, by a single party. Anything can be passed now! Card check, legalized strong arming by the unions, cap and trade, regulation of anything left in life that the Government doesn’t already control. Soon, Americans will be told which Dr. they can go to and what health care they can have. If you are over 60 or retired, you are dead meat, if you have a birth defect and connot contribute to the tax coffers of the Democratic Central Committee, you are dead meat. Those of you in school will be told what and where you can work…Yes, as Newsweek said, We are now, All Socialists! The days of free and open debate are gone, the days of the right to vote are gone, and the right to live free to make the choices you want are gone. My life is coming to end, and I will escape the horrible times that are ahead. My children and grandchildren will have to deal with it. I only pray that they are strong enough in thier character to endure and survive……
January 4th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
It’s amazing how the Marxists can justify to themselves that theft is ok as long as they use the government as a proxy.
January 4th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
We can not tax the corporations more, they will just head to mexico labor. We need to tax the rich, we need to tax their salaries so much, THAT IT CURBS THEIR GREED, if they knew they would lose 65% to taxes, they wouldn’t be so greedy. Anyone making over $500.000 a year needs to be taxes at 65% over that amount. We need a law that eliminates any type of government retirement benifits, no medicare, or SS for any CEO who ships jobs out of this country, to make a buck on cheaper labor. Maybe we should even take away their citizenship, and make them live in those other countries. Why is California so broke with all their millionaires, because the millionaires want this, and that, they want their childrens schools to have the best, they want their town to look gorgeous, they want nice roads, they want private roads the general public can’t use as a shortcut, to get around traffic, fancy street lights, and all those extra’s cost money. If they don’t pay their share of taxes, the government goes broke trying to meet their desires. We have to heavily tax the wealthy to curb their greed.
January 4th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
I’m rather amazed at the number of comments here promoting a return to accountabiliy, responsibilty and self-reliance. Usually topics of this sort get immediately drowned out by hundreds of Leftists demanding this and that. Encouraging to see this type of dialogue.
I guess I shouldnt be too surprised though. If you are posting on this blog page it was because you were concerned about how much you would be paying in taxes in 2010. Since the vast majority of Leftists dont pay taxes, I dont think they really care what the 2010 rates are.
Even so, I will attempt to delude myself into thinking that mayebe the electorate in this country is changing and we may start to hold our government officials accountable. Sure would be nice to see a collective “Enough is Enough!” next November…..
January 4th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
Go figure. A minute after I make my last post, “Neighbor” is there to bring me back to reality. Just a reminder that there is a lot of hard work to do if we are going to reverse the path this country has recently taken.
Thanks for the wake-up call Neighbor!
January 4th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Yikes, what a diverse level of commentary.
While I agree that this country is heading in a bad direction, I don’t agree that it is a recent turn. What is going has been going on for almost 100 years. With both sides adding gasoline to the fire. Yet some see it as Red versus Blue. I see them as all Purple Barneys, playing the general public (voters) as patsies and bribing them with their own tax dollars to get their vote.
It leads to passionate commentary, like some of the posts here. We should try to stay clear of the name calling and hysteria. There are enough legitimate factual problems without having to contrive ones.
Neighbor – Check the US Constitution before you give the Corporations a free pass.
January 4th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Twenty years ago you could find a job paying $10 per hour, now twenty years later the jobs are still paying $10 per hour. What happened? The rich got greedier, now they want boobs, flat tummies, and mile high face lifts. The rich are making your cost of living raises. Now you have to have both spouses working, just to pay the basic bills. Now the government has to pay out more food stamps, and other benefits, just to keep families fed, because their income is so low. Living expenses are up, and pay is down. I wonder how bad this recession would have been if gas didn’t go over $4 a gallon in 2007. Is that what really started this recession. Was it that people couldn’t afford to pay twice as much for auto fuel. Did some of them start falling behind on their mortgages because of it. Why did all those greedy loan processors tell people they could afford those ridiculously huge mortgages, based on their low pay. Bush changed the tax brackets to benefit the rich, Bush was also vested in oil, and Bush wanted to make 401k’s the new retirement to replace Social Security. We all know what happened to the 401k’s during this recession. The only way to stop the rich from stealing away our lively hood, is to raise the taxes on the wealthy. Who really needs to make more than $500,000 a year? This reminds me of the Boston tea party, we need a rebellion!
January 4th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
If you haven’t read or heard about today, the new health care reform mandates will administered by the IRS…….can no one see what is really going on here!!!!!! It is not about taxes!!!!! It is about a ruling class and a working class, you have be one or the other, or you have no place in the “New World order”. I suggust you take another read of 1984 and Farenheit 451, as well as many of the contemporary books on the subject of this administration……..
January 4th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
War, stimulates economies. If the war ended tomorrow, where would all those servicemen, and women work? What jobs would be available? Was the real purpose of the war to stimulate the economy, and make things look better than what they really were? Is what they told us the real story? Could it be is was really a oil war? Was this all a set up leading up to higher oil prices? Who would benefit from higher oil prices? Was the 401k national retirement plan to replace Social Security, the next step to milking us out of our money. The natural reaction when your funds start losing money is to pull out, but then someone else steps in, buys low, and reaps the profit, of those who pulled out when the market started to tank. I’ll tell you if you were an oil guy, and made all that money on the oil increase of 2007, then took that profit, and rolled it into the stock market when it bottomed out in march 2009, you would be a very rich person today. Thats exactly why you should pay 65% taxes on all that money you made!
January 4th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Hey Neighbor
Do what I did, get yourself an address in low tax Nevada and keep your Ca. home too.. Let someone else pay for the schools, roads and fancy lights.
January 4th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Hey..anyone out there that is retired military get on their mypay print out stating that the “federal government has taken an additional bunch of monies out on their federal taxes for 2009 stating it was “due to recent legislation”? On our federal taxes for 2009 year..there was an additional 16.50 per month taken out totalling out at 198.00 for the year ..(remember this is in addition to the monies they have already taken out throughout the year).
We do not have an outstanding balance due to the government/irs..We have always filed taxes before they were due. SO..its not them two reasons why the increase.
Every place I have called, looked into they all refer me back to this “new legislation” which alls I can get is we are suppose to get less taxes taken out of us..and therefore recoup some much needed monies in our retirement checks.
Folks better wake up because that is not whats happening. Instead, our government is taking MORE federal tax monies out of our pay..and no one can find any specific reasons, or tax laws, or answers as the WHY…
Last I remember, only the higher end of the payscale folks were suppose to get nailed..NOT those with less than 29,000.00 a year on military retirement benefits.
NO COLA for 2 or so years on top of that, and then the cost of fuel, food, etc on the steady rise…
I would like to see the rich folks end up like the rest of us ..living on a shoe string and still getting screwed by the government..
January 4th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
Isn’t it obvious to the American Proletarians that the really rich people in this country don’t pay taxes? Maybe to someone making $30k, $300,000 seems like a lot of money. Doesn’t it just burn you up that someone is driving in a new BMW while you slave away in your old Honda? Poor babies!
Get a grip people! The very rich spend millions to make sure tax laws are passed to protect their billions. Like George Carlin said, “it’s one big club, and you ain’t in it!”
We’re all a bunch of suckers. This whole joke of an economy will be coming down soon. Good riddance, say I.
January 5th, 2010 at 11:01 am
Neighbor:
I hesitate to try and logically respond to your rant. Because, with all due respect, you don’t really seem to be one who is grounded in logic. You seem more like a Daily Kos/Keith Oberman disciple. But I’ll give it a shot anyway…
1) You seem really upset that Bush tried to give us Private Account options instead of the straight Social Security government pyramid scam. Here’s a tidbit you probably haven’t heard. Someone retiring today after working ~45 years gets…what… $23,000 a year in SS? Do you know that if that person had put all of his SS taxes into the S&P Index he would get over $125,000 PER YEAR today. And thats after the crashes of 2001 and 2008. Yes, choice and ownership (and Capitalism too I guess) are horrible things. I would much rather “own” my retirement funds then “hope” that the government will be solvent enough to pay me the $23k a year when I retire. And make no mistake about, this government is heading to bankruptcy. Oh wait, I forgot, the money is sitting in a “lockbox”
2) Blood for Oil, etc, etc. Again, really hard to respond to this one because it is so ludicrous. But for this argument to hold true, you and your ilk would truly have to believe in your heart of hearts that Bush started two wars in the Middle East (and probably faked the 9/11 attacks), put hundreds of thousands of troops in harms way and risked his entire presidential legacy, because he wanted a small group of his friends in some dark smoky room to be able to make millions of dollars on Oil futures contracts? If you do beleive that, I obviously cant change your mind.
3) “Why did all those greedy loan processors tell people they could afford those ridiculously huge mortgages, based on their low pay”
God, I wish I had time to write 5 pages on this one. A very complicated subject but I can sum up the entire cause of the Mortgage/Housing bubble/collapse in 2 words. Fanny and Freddy (those are government agencies if you didnt know). We’ve had Sub Prime mortgages and those stupid EOC laws “encouraging” lenders to make loans to minorities/poor people for decades (started with Carter). But banks aren’t stupid. They found ways to avoid making those EOC loans. EOC went short of holding a gun to banks heads and forcing them to write bad loans. But in 1995 something changed. The Clinton Administartion changed the Freddy and Fanny ruls to allow “the government” to purchase Sub Prime mortgages on the secondary Market. All of a sudden, if a bank wrote a horrible loan to someone who couldnt afford it, they didnt need to worry about whether they ever paid it back. They could just write the loan, lock in the UW fee, and then turn around the next day and sell that horrible loan to YOU AND ME, the TAXPAYER! It was a license to print money. No risk, all reward! The goverment thought it would be a good thing if the poor and minorities “owned” (lol) homes they couldnt afford. So they bought every one of those damn mortgages. Long story short the pyramid scheme worked fine for about 12 years as home prices rose the banks could just sell foreclosed properties for a profit. When home prices went down….POP!
I know you had some more points, but it’s too tiring to respond to them all. Maybe later.
January 5th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Seems everyone has to have a bogeyman to be afraid of or blame, reminds me of Hitler.
Neighbor – It’s not that anyone needs to make more than $500,000 a year. It’s the fact that in a free and open society you should be allowed to, within the rules and regulations, of course.
Josh – Your numbers don’t jibe. Don’t take the 11%+ “average rate of return” for the S&P 500 over the past 65 years as a straight line return. The S&P lost 37% in ‘08. To break even one would have to earn 58%+ in ‘09. That’s a net of over 21%, or an “average” return of over 10% for ‘08 & ‘09. Yet all you did was breakeven. There’s no way you would have over $125,000 per year to live on. Average salary back then was about $2,000 and the SS withholding was not the 6.2% that it is today. And the “return” includes capital gains, while income you can live on has to come from dividends alone if you want your principal to stay the same. Bush’s plan to turn SS to equity accounts was a big pile of money to Wall Street. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/interviews/bogle.html
As for the mortgage mess. Blame whomever you want but Fannie was under investigation from 2003 – 2006. During that time, Fannie and Freddie went from having 70% of the securitization market to 30%. Someone had to pick up the slack. The Bear Sterns, Lehman’s and Goldman’s of the world, the so called “Secondary Market,” all had their own Sub-Prime shops. Who do you think picked up the slack while Fannie was under investigation?
You want to make this a Dem/Blue vs. Rep/Red thing, be careful. The Reds controlled Congress in ‘03. As I said before, they’re all Purple Barneys to me.
As for wars…bet you think WWII was about Pearl Harbor.
January 6th, 2010 at 2:28 am
OK well I may be only 23 and may not know anything. But I am a Soldier and have been for 5years now. I hate complaining. I hate peple that whine about everything. We aren’t paid very well and I am not going to b!tch about the rich getting Taxed so much. Personally, I think we should all be treated equally. You have people on here talking about they should be paying more taxing because they make more. No thats not true. They are successfull and you are not. You are a lazy bum who choses to live on unemployment.
January 6th, 2010 at 2:47 am
Federal tax is just a small part of your overall taxes… Consider State taxes, sales taxes, FICA (7.5% you + 7.5% your employer), medicare, car taxes and yearly license fees, property taxes, all sorts of fees, fees and taxes on your phone bill. It is endless.
If you were to look up statistics I would guess that for every dollar you make about 60% is taken from you when you look at the big picture.
The federal gov’t is heading for its third bankruptcy and perhaps its last. The banks and big business are already running the country anyway with gov’t officials as their front men. Don’t fool yourself there is no difference between the two main parties. An illusion of having a choice when there in none.
January 6th, 2010 at 6:03 am
Stop bitching about wealthy people paying less taxes and get off your lazy ass and work instead of complaining about how many yachts they buy. I’m 25 with a 140k salary and buy no means am I wealthy. I still have a beat up old car and trying to save for a home in which i cant qualify for because of the stupid individuals in the mortgage industry giving loans out to people for 2 million dollar homes with incomes of 20k. Its you lazy slobs that bring down this economy and want a hand out from the people that drive this economy.
If you want better health-care get a better job and pay for it if you want nicer clothes get a better job and pay for it. Are you catching the overall theme here that says if you want better things you need to work for it instead of expecting it from your ridiculous so called government. Ever notice your government figure heads are buying 5 million dollar homes in every state and there salary’s are only 200k. Also why does the president need a 400k salary 50k annual expense account 100k non taxable travel expense and 19k for entertainment…. strange isn’t it???? WORK YOU LAZY PEOPLE!!! THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILD BY HARD WORKERS NOT LAZY SLOBS THAT WANT HANDOUTS FROM EVERYONE!!!!!
January 6th, 2010 at 11:37 am
I got the $125K from the Wall Street Journal 2 years ago. I’ll trust them. S&P has gained back much of its losses so I grandfathered in that number over the last couple of years. But whether you want to dispute the actual number or not, you would have done MUCH better investing your money in the stock market then the federal government over the last 65 years.
The mortgage meltdown is impossible to debate vie blog posts. But if you will do some research you will see that Sub Prime mortgages exploded after 95 when Fanny and Freddy became a backstopo for banks. They were nothing as a % prior to that. Now I;m not saying the big brokerage houses and banks didnt “jump on the bandwagon” and buy those CDO’s (often from Fanny and Freddy) because they were making huge returns the first half of the decade. They did and they were stupid. But most of those losses came not from individual bad loans but from investment in the huge groupings of debt on the secondary market. The question was why did the banks make those individual bad loans to begin with? That is because they had government backing.
And it aint Red vs. Blue. Its Conservative vs Liberal. Republicans are ALMSOT as bad about spending money as Democrats.
January 6th, 2010 at 11:39 am
An exerpt from my future Inaugural Address:
America is the greatest country that the world has ever known. It is great for many reasons. The Liberty that it enjoys at home and then fought to bring to the rest of the world. The opportunity it provides to all citizens, regardless of race, religion or class. Its seemingly endless supply of compassion and charity for those less fortunate. However, it is in this last regard that America has recently been failing. We are not providing the level of care and assistance that we should to those that truly need and deserve it. Why? We have decided to take the easy approach and simply hand out the taxpayers’ money to whoever asks for it, regardless of circumstance. As a result, we have greatly diminished our ability to make a positive impact on the lives of the people that need our help the most. The people who have played by the rules, made good decisions in their lives, embraced hard work and personal responsibility and yet still face obstacles in their life which they cannot overcome without our assistance. The man who worked in a plant for 20 years before it closed and sees no other opportunities. The parents working 2 jobs but still can’t keep up with the medical bills for their sick child. The legal immigrant striving to learn English so she can get a good job and provide a better life for her family. These are the people that America has failed.
I propose that this willful neglect end today. I propose that we cut in half the annual spending on Social Programs and at the same time we double the assistance given to the 25% of those that truly need it. What will happen to the other 75%? The drug addicts will get clean. The criminals will be rehabilitated. The illegal immigrants will go home. The lazy will get jobs. The uneducated will go back to school. The unskilled will learn a trade. In short, they will start to be held accountable for their own actions. They will quickly develop a strong sense of personal responsibility. They will break the vicious cycle of poverty and never ending dependence on others. Now they will not become the “middle class” overnight. History has proven that you cannot create prosperity by waving a magic wand and taking from some to give to others. In fact, they may never become middle class in their lifetimes. But their children will. Their children will learn from their mistakes. They will be instilled with their new sense of hard work and self-reliance. Their grandchildren may become the upper-middle class or even “the wealthy”. And at that time they will struggle with the realization that their hard work and generosity supports this wonderful country, and in return for that support they receive not thanks but instead disdain and ridicule.
We will take these savings and others and reduce government spending by $500B per year. Yet, even at that astonishing rate, it will still take a generation to eliminate the national debt. But if America is ever going to achieve greatness again, this is a goal that we must achieve. We must not continue to send hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to foreign governments and banks because we lacked the political courage to make the hard fiscal decisions. It is a national imperative to break this vicious cycle. Just as John Kennedy challenged us to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade, I am challenging America to eliminate the national debt within 20 years. Your children and your country will thank you.
By eliminating wasteful spending and the national debt, America will enjoy an annual surplus approaching a trillion dollars. Imagine the opportunities this will create for us. America will once again have the flexibility and capital necessary to invest in our future, rather than paying for the sins of our past. The savings can be reinvested into energy independence, education and perhaps most importantly, reducing the tax burden on the American people and spurring our economy on to new heights. America can once again become an inspiration to the rest of the world instead of a punch-line. We can show the world how a robust, free-market economy can provide freedom, opportunity and prosperity to all. Let us learn from our history and recognize how America became the greatest country in the world in less than 200 years of existence. Let us once again embrace the economic freedom and spirit of entrepreneurship that turned 13 break-away British colonies into a beacon of hope and inspiration for the rest of the world. Let us recognize that history has proven time and again that Socialism is merely a path to mediocrity and obscurity for once great and proud nations. Finally, let us return to the path that our Founding Fathers set us upon. America has known greatness in the past, and with your help, we will return it to greatness once again.
January 6th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
The looters and moochers who whine about “the rich” also forget that most taxes don’t tax wealth, they tax income. If I was worth $10 million and kept the money in a non-interest bearing account, my income would be zero. I would owe no taxes. No, the income tax punishes people who are *trying* to become rich.
I’m working my ass off with a full time job and renting out my investment properties to losers that won’t pay their rent so I can retire early. But the damn government comes along and steals most of what I have left after my bills.
Yet people who spend all their money on DVD’s, flat screen TV’s, iPhones, and flashy cars, then get in debt to their eyeballs to buy more whine that they can’t “afford” health insurance and point to me to pay for it. (You’re “rich”… you have rental properties.)
Yeah, I’m pissed. I think the producers need to go on strike like in Atlas Shrugged.
January 7th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
So, wouldn’t a consumption tax be the most equitable method of paying to live in this great country. If you buy more, you pay more, and conversely if you buy less you pay less. Those who aren’t paying any tax or less than they owe would end up paying more of their fair share, i.e. people engaged in illegal activities who don’t report that money to the IRS, people who can shelter most of their income or people who are just dishonest when they file their taxes,
A parting shot… for a rule of thumb regarding a government solution to social and economic issues; “Anything you subsidize you have more of and anything you penalize you have less of”. Sounds pretty mundane, but apply that principal to the federal solutions to our growing number of poor or declining number of financially secure.
January 8th, 2010 at 11:38 am
When I think about the tax situation, and the political situation, my feelings can be summed up easily. I ask you to ask yourself but one question, folks:
“Who’s responsibility is it to take care of ME and MY FAMILY?”
Your answer to this question will resonate volumes about yourself.
My answer to this question, is, of course, “It’s MY responsibility, not OBAMA’S!”
Dear OBAMA: :LEAVE ME AND MY FAMILY ALONE!
January 8th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
It appears that stupidity and greed are running rampant. There is a reason the rich are taxed more…they can still put food on the table if they lose an extra 10%. You’re rich and you think you work hard? Try cleaning toilets, digging ditches, or picking up garbage. That’s hard work too.
If all the heavily taxed are so unhappy and things are so bad, why haven’t they left?… Gone to another country where you’ll be able to prosper and pay less taxes. Wait a minute, no such place exists! Part of your taxes is for the right to own your own business and / or work the job you do that enables you to make better money than most of the world.
No one is ever happy. You make 10’s of thousands, you want 100’s. You make 100’s, you want millions. It’s never enough. Again, if you’re unhappy, leave. I’d rather not have to listen to the whining.
Additionally, a flat tax rate is idiotic. You have people making minimum wage that you want to pay higher taxes? Can you be that dumb? I know, they are the “uneducated idiots” right? I suppose you don’t realize the teachers that gave you the education you have were mostly making 40k or less. Not everyone can be a tycoon unless you don’t mind an absence of roads and a big pile of garbage outside your house. Society needs everyone. Not only are you content not in letting others do your NECESSARY and unwanted jobs, but you’re plenty happy giving them more of a tax burden too. Absurd. To everyone complaining about their taxes….I award all of you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
And by the way, just because you’re paying lower taxes doesn’t mean that you think it’s someone else’s responsibility to take care of your family. I pay lower taxes and take care of my family just fine.
January 8th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
…and as a side note, the reason the consumption tax doesn’t work is because rich people spend a smaller percentage of their income. You might make a million and only spend 100k. Conversely, if you’re making 50k, you’ll probably spend almost all your income to support your family. What ends up happening is the people in the middle pay all their income as tax while the people on the upper end only pay a small chunk of their net value. This leaves the upper end with more money (earning interest). This is why the rich love this system and the middle class hate it.
January 8th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Frankly, when it comes to taxes, I’m not interested in what’s fair. I’m only interested in what’s Constitutional! And what we have is not constitutional.
A national sales tax, or value added tax, would be acceptable within the structure of the Constitution. But would never get passed because we must consume, consume. Keeps our dollars heading out of the country for lower priced goods. So the country who exports to us can buy our debt with own (mostly borrowed) dollars. Kind of like the politicians buying our votes with our own tax money. That’s why they call it a system.
I bet most people here are paying more as a percentage in taxes and surcharges (a fancy word for tax) for their cell phones than their effective federal income tax rate. Same could be said for the credit card interest rates.
January 8th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
So many people are hung up on the idea that we must make the successful or lucky pay for everyone else. The comment that the percentage of income collected from lower income people, using a consumption tax, is unfair because it is a higher percentage comparitively, is still based on the idea that if you have more you owe me more. Everyone owes something for living here, there are plenty of programs to help people who are in need. For an analogy – this should draw some fire – Consider a campground, a nice one, with all the stuff. To stay in that campground, everyone must pay a fee, however lets say for all the extras there is a charge. Things like the swimming pool, the arcade, the convention areas, the tennis court, etc. You can only do the things you can afford so that is in your control of cost, but you have paid your fee to be there and enjoy the basic amenities like the showers, grills, visiting with your neighbors, taking a walk etc. If you want to enjoy something you cannot afford, I don’t believe the guy in the next spot should not be forced to pay for it. If he wants to that is fine but he doesn’t owe it to you or me.
January 8th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
Duh…..
It’s been said many times, but I guess it needs to be said again. The vast majority of people here aren’t “complaining” about paying more money than “poor” people. Under all tax plans (progressive, flat, sales, etc) that would be the case, and should be. What we (and hopefully the public at large) are complaining about is the massive amount of government waste of those tax dollars. The government creates this perpetual underclass that develops an obscene sense of entitlement and never develops any semblence of accountability or self-reliance. You say you dont make a lot and take care of your family just fine. Kudos to you! I wish there were a lot more like you…
And for what its worth, both a flat tax or sales (consumption) tax would come with huge exemptions (like 50k) so that the garbage men and teachers you are defending would pay nothing (just like they pay now). The benefit of these plans is in ENCOURAGES risk taking and investment (which is actually what creates jobs, not government “stimulus”) rather than DISCOURAGING it.
But I guess I must be idiotic, stupid and..what else? Oh yeah….greedy.
January 8th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
Hey “Duh”,
It’s nice of you to declare that since rich people make more they can afford to pay more. But you are a Looter. YOU decide that “something” should be done by government and YOU decide that SOMEONE ELSE must pay for it. Did you know that the top 1% of income earners pay almost 40% of the income tax? But they only make ~30% of the income? So you tell me, how much of their income do you want to steal before you think it’s fair? 50%? 60%? All of it?
Rich people don’t stick their money under their mattresses. They invest it or spend it. If they invest it, it provides capital for more production and more jobs. If they spend it, it provides capital for more production and more jobs.
Think of all the non-government jobs you’ve ever had (if you’ve ever actually had one). Have you ever been employed by a poor person?
The current tax situation is very unfair. We’ve got almost 50% of the population that pays NO federal income tax. The tax rate of many is negative since they receive “refundable” tax credits. (There’s an Orwellian term for you.) But they get to vote. How long do you think it’ll be when that crosses 50%? Sort of like two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner….
January 9th, 2010 at 12:32 am
Taking from everyone according to their ability and giving to everyone according to their need is the definition of Socialism… go to Cuba and see how it works – - Duh!
January 9th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Effort+gumption+determination=reward. I’m a guy with barely a high school education that has made it big and I wasn’t born with it and I didn’t steal it. All you whiny poor people should get off your dead ass and go out and make something happen so you don’t have to rely on Odrama to feed you.
January 10th, 2010 at 1:50 am
Based upon the somewhat certain passage of healthcare, the 35% tax rate will most likely climb to 40-42 percent. Personal deductions will also be phased out for anyone earning over 200,000 now deemed rich.
I cashed out my IRA and paid the penalty, as my marginal rate pushed to 33% with the penalty, I am still ahead of the ‘game’
January 10th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
No one should have to pay 35% or more in Federal Income Tax. The whole system should be done away with. Even those who pay no income tax can afford beer and cigarettes. We should have a consumption flat tax. Everyone should pay their fair share if it’s a $1.00 or $20,000. ! No poor person has ever created a job.
January 10th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
josh….well said, all of it!
January 11th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Gwen, why do you think you are entitled to anyone’s monies? I am not rich…but you keep your monies and I will keep mine. I work for it…as does the rich. Who do you think gave you your job?
January 11th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
The only thing the Dems do well is taking from those that have and giving away…not necessarily to those that don’t have…just to maintain those that are now beholdin’ to them.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:17 am
I’m in the 28% tax bracket and I’m not happy about it. Everyone says tax the rich but the government isnt really taxing the rich. The IRS is taxing people like me and you that have work hard to get some where but just barely make it by reguardless of our income. The more we make the more we pay. I make a dollar the IRS gets 28 cents now i have .72 of my dollar. The state takes iTs 6% so now i have .66. Then there’s property taxes on my car and house. If I go out to eat i pay another 10% on my .66 i had left over from the state and federal tax. Sooner of later I’ll figure out that it is more productive to not work and live off the welfare of the rich (those of you with a job). A flat sales tax would be fair because if you sp.end money you will pay tax on what you spend. IE Big spender = big tax payer. Lets get real about that the laws are made buy people that are out of touch with the average american. There interest is not whats good for the USA but what will keep them in office. As you can all see by recent events, if your in the good old boy group like wall street and the bankers then you will be rewarded for screwing the american public out of every nickel you can get. Also once you screw them we will reward you with a bailout from the very people that you cheated and destroyed. Dont worry wall street the little guy will have to keep paying for you greed as long as the fox(politicians) is in the hen house(the country). Maybe if we put term limits on house and senate of 4 to 8 years then the country will change its ways. Our next great turning point for the average joe will be the health care bill. Medicare is a joke being ripped off for billions every year…that right billions..and now the politicians think they can run a health care system for the country when they couldnt even run it for a small group of people. If you don’t think your taxes will not increase to around 50% of your check for the federal portion in the next 10 years then you had better wake up. In the long run it maybe cheaper for me to pay a fine and be uninsured untill i get sick then pay for insurance. Like I said before, sooner or later I’ll be better of if I just don’t work at all an let the rich(people with jobs) pay my way.
January 13th, 2010 at 9:35 am
To Doug L. – Don’t wait for Government to impose Term Limits. That’s just more of the same (relying on Government to make our decisions and/or control our lives). We already have term limits and they occur every November. It’s called the election booth. When the American people adopt an attitude of voting out all incumbents (they can come back and run again) then the politician will get the message that the voters do matter. A side benefit of that strategy would be that the Lobbyists won’t be able to “buy” an ally because of the constant turn over. One downside would be that the people will lose some experience on the various committees within the Congress but look where that has gotten us. There will have to be some pain from this process. But after 20 or 30 years we may have a Government that is more representative of the public than of the special interests. And maybe even a National Sales Tax to replace the Un-Constitutional Federal Income Tax.
January 14th, 2010 at 5:50 am
Alot of irrational comments being posted here, as well some good debate (which is nice for a change) . Initially, I was a bit shocked to see how many people want to tax the hell out of the “rich.” Most people in the 28-33% are not rich and have worked their asses off to get there as well.
Do you really think I deserve to be taxed EVEN MORE because my ambition is greater than yours? I didn’t get lucky nor was I born into this – I just used my brain & worked harder than anyone else I know/have ever met. I work for every single penny of it – and I deserve every single penny of it. I have no intention of being greedy with my money – quite the contrary. I don’t need some idiot telling me what should happen to my money. I don’t mind paying the taxes at the current rate, that is okay with me – my concern is the people who believe that I should be paying more because i’ve surpassed them.
If you were sitting in my position – you may not even be as close to as humble as I am. I don’t care for fast cars, big houses, formal gatherings where you throw around big names to feel important, or anything of the sort.
So if you’re angry at me for being where I am today in my 20ish years of life because I worked hard for it – from the ground up – this applies to you:
My ambition is greater than yours – my will exceeds that of yours by 10x – in fact, I don’t like people like you and I will surpass you in every single way possible.
Instead of sitting around complaining – gear that energy towards something positive and bring about a change in your life. Being bitter will take you no where.
January 14th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Now is our chance!
A lot people (like me) complaiing about the Trillions of dollars of wasteful spending and tax increases headed our way. I thought we would have to wait until November to try and stop it and by then most of the damage would be done.
But we can stop it next Tuesday, January 19th. Scott Brown has a REAL chance of winning Ted Kennedy’s seat and ending the Dem’s Supermajority in the Senate. I can’t believe a Republican could get elected in the Bluest of Blue states a year after the “Obama Revolution”. It’s mind boggling. What a difference a year makes!
So if you live in Mass, please get out to vote and bring along a dozen of your closest friends.
If you KNOW someone in Mass please do all you can to convince them to get out and vote for Brown.
One Senator can stop Cap and Trade, Amnesty for 20+ Million illegals, Card Check and possibly even the Health Care monstrosity.
Change You Can Beleive In!
January 14th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Here’s some fun facts for the fiscal conservatives out there:
For the past 100 years, the AVERAGE income tax rate has been around 54%. Much higher than even the highest tax bracket currently.
From 1954 -1963, the highest tax rate was 91%. That’s right, if you made over $400k in that time period (which is equivalent to $3.1 million 2008 dollars) then you sent 91% of it to Uncle Sam. Not a lot of money when you think of the Bill Gates and Warren Buffets of the world. Still, there was a little thing called the Cold War going on that the government felt we should finance. Then there was also the recently passed GI Bill for our soldiers coming home from WW2, a new thing called Social Security, and a whole host of other things that our country saw fit to tax the richest of us to pay for. Funny how in the annals of history we never come across such outrage at taxes as we have today with our exceedingly low rates.
My point: Stop complaining about “high” tax rates. We’re in one of the lowest tax environments since World War Two, we have the highest population that the U.S. has ever seen, the most expensive military apparatus and welfare state in our nation’s history, and two simultaneous ACTIVE military engagements. Oh, and I think we might be in a recession too, now that I think of it. So yeah, everything costs money. Do the tax codes need to be re-written? Well, I’m currently in the 25% bracket, but my equivalent income in 1960 (after accounting for inflation) would put me into the 22% bracket. I’ll let everyone draw their own conclusions on that.
Resources:
Inflation Calculator: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
Historical Tax Rates: http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html
January 15th, 2010 at 10:39 am
If you want to make a difference, in what look to be a critical turning point into a downward spiral for the USA, get involved in the Tea Party Movement. Stop the rediculous government spending. I agree with reform for the health care industry but the goverment cant run medicare how can it run a giant health care system? It cant but in the process of doing so the government is tax us until we have nothing left. It will effect all of us no matter how much you make or dont make. America needs a change for the better not more corruption! Goin a tea party and get involved!
http://www.grassrootsnation.com/Groups/GroupListing.aspx?type=Tea+Party
January 15th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
I just want you all to stop this equal opportuinty to move up the ladder garbage. Peoples aptitudes differ and I will never be a doctor because of it. I make good money, but only because I found my niche. Some people are never going to get out of the service industry becuase they don’t have the skill set OR don’t have the aptitude to gain the needed skill set.
And when people complain about government handouts it makes me sick. Just wait until you have a medical emergency that drains your savings dry in a couple months and then bankrupts you. We had friends that were die-hard conservatives who did not want any social services, but when they had a disabled child they sure changed there tune.
If your are human and you don’t feel some compassion towards humanity that’s a good indication that your a psychopath.
January 15th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
To THAT GUY – great post.
My husband is like you. I see the blood, sweat, and tears that he puts into his work and I just wrote our quarterly tax checks tonight. I am really, really tired of paying for people that I see in court every day who refuse to take appropriate steps towards helping themselves.
To neighbor, unless you have long ago cancelled your cable bill and cell phone, I don’t want to hear about your or anyone else’s plight. People say that they are “poor” but “poor” really means that they are upset that they can’t afford the extras like cable television and cell phones. YES, these are extras.
Until you are living without cable television, internet access, and a cell phone….all while working for minimum wage at Wal-Mart and coming home to a cold apartment because you never turn the heat above 65, you are not poor. If you can’t afford things, it is because you fail to understand that in this country, you can have anything you want, but not everything you want (unless you are Bill Gates……but even he can’t afford everything). All it takes is hard work and determination. You seem to have determination, but the problem is that you are determine to make that guy, me and a bunch of other people on this board pay for you! Sorry neighbor, it doesn’t work that way, unless you live in China (but feel free to move – I would pay for that!).
January 16th, 2010 at 9:20 am
Jonathan:
Why don’t you cut out the bomb throwing and the patronizing. Yes, Conservatives are psychopaths with no compassion for humanity. It’s exactly this simple-minded mentality that keeps us from making any real progress in this country. Repoublicans are mean. Democrats are so nice. Blah, blah, blah. Why dont you try and take that argument down another 10 or 20 levels and see if you can make some logical points based on reason.
For the 100th time, if you listened to any of us “Conservatives” (especially my posts), you would see that we are upset that the government is wasting all of the money that should be going towards “families with disabled children”. Why do you want to continue to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on illegal aliens, high school drop outs, felons, lazy leeches, etc when we could be using that money to help the truly needy. The people that play by the rules but still need a helping hand to get by. Why should they have to survive on a couple hundred dollars a week because hundreds of billions are being scammed from the taqxpayers?
In my opinion, anyone who supports a system like that is a psychopath. But I bet it makes you feel good to tell people how compassionate you are at cocktail parties.
January 16th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Jonathan:
Your last comment was so irritating that I almost forgot to respond to your first.
There is no such thing as “genetic aptitude”. Every human being on this planet has an equal capacity and opportunity for learning and growth. Asians aren’t smarter than everyone else, they just work harder. A kid born in the Ghetto today has the same gentic capability to become a doctor as the rich white kid in the sub-urbs. Granted, that kid has a lot more social obstacles to overcome. But his aptitude is no different from anyone else.
If you resist the temptations to do bad things and work hard throughout your life, anyone can succeed. No one is doomed at birth to be in the “service industry”.
This is America for Christ’s sake! At least for the moment…..
January 16th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Some interesting postings of late, particularly liked Jonathan’s objective feedback and Nick’s use of data and fact, quite refreshing from the whining and hate most generate.
Doug L – Did look into the Tea Party movement but found it to be very fragmented. Also find it a bit hypocritical and more geared to be against the current administration than for a particular cause. Where were they when the previous administration took us from a so-called surplus to a deficit, took that deficit to record levels and then doubled the deficit? Don’t recall many DC rallies, if any. Seemed they were okay with that because that administration was so-called “Conservative,” hence my claim of hypocrisy.
Nixon was considered a Conservative yet it was he who approved Supplemental Security Income (SSI) for Immigrants.
Clinton was considered a Liberal yet was able to put the budget into a so-called surplus situation.
Seems any tiger can change their stripes. That’s why I don’t view this Red vs. Blue, or Conservative vs. Liberal. It all gets blended together in the end. To me they’re all Purple Barneys. And until they vote along the lines of the Constitution, the article that all elected officials swears to uphold when taking office, I will vote out all incumbents. That’s my term limits. Don’t need no stinking Tea Party!
I’ve come to the conclusion if your person is in the White House they can do no wrong and if it’s not your person they can do no right, pure politics and pure hypocrisy.
January 16th, 2010 at 11:59 am
So beyeth the money grubbing masses. If you worried about money and the rat race a little less you wouldn’t die at 47 of a heart attack. Relax people, money is important, but it’s not something that dictates your life. If your god is a green piece of paper then fine, whatever. But to those who feel they never had enough, rich or poor, relax. Adjust how you live with what you have. Keeping up with the Gates is suicide.
January 16th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
Haywood: Money doesn’t dictate my life, money represents a little piece of my life. I trade my time, blood, sweat, and tears to get the money. What I decide to do with the money which I traded a bit of my life for is my choice. I can buy stuff I decide I want more than the money. I can stockpile it. I can invest it to let it grow. Or I can voluntarily give it away to make the world a better place.
When the government comes in at the behest of “progressives” and takes that money without my consent, they are literally stealing a bit of my life. The stress of having my life stolen is much more likely to give me a heart attack at 47. When you trade your life for nothing, you are just a slave, not a free man. If you feel happy and stress-free being a slave, then more power to you.
January 17th, 2010 at 2:00 am
@Jonathan
Yeah, some people are not born equal in the skills department. Life sucks. That’s not an excuse to steal from me to help people YOU think are not capable of supporting themselves.
Yes, some people have life-changing events and become moochers. That doesn’t mean they are right.
You’re last point about “you don’t feel some compassion towards humanity that’s a good indication that your[sic] a psychopath.” Compassion? Does not complaining when someone steals my money and life mean I have compassion? Government force is NOT compassion. I have plenty of compassion and I’m willing to VOLUNTARILY lend a helping hand. Don’t presume to know how much compassion I have. I do not like having a gun put to my head and told to be “compassionate,” though.
January 17th, 2010 at 2:06 am
@Nick: Yes the marginal tax rates where higher in the past. But you’re comparing apples to oranges. Almost EVERYTHING was deductible back then. Reagan’s tax reform in the ’80’s tended to flatten the tax rates by lowering the marginal rates and removing a lot of deductions (You know, the “loopholes” the progressives complained about when they heard the “rich” were not paying “their fair share” even though the top marginal rates were 91%.)
Oh, and I will not stop complaining about high tax rates. As long at the government looters keep stealing from me and giving to moochers, I will keep complaining… until perhaps they outlaw that too.
January 17th, 2010 at 2:11 am
@Russ : I love how libs turn to accusing someone of “hate” when they disagree with you.
Nixon was no conservative. We’ve had very few conservative presidents in the last 100 years. And Clinton only balanced the budget because the republican congress drug him kicking and screaming into doing it. Spending bills originate in the House, remember?
You are right about people cheerleading for whoever is in office. You’d think they’re talking about their favorite sports team. To me, they are all a bunch of Statists that will do anything to increase the power of government.
January 17th, 2010 at 11:10 am
The hate is coming from both sides, Tim; it’s not too difficult to see that.
Yes, I’ve heard it all before.
Reagan’s budget was out of whack because the Democrats made him spend, spend, and spend.
The Clinton budget was a so called “surplus” because the Republicans made him.
This country was better served during Coolidge, Hoover and George W Bush when the Republicans had the White House, the Senate and the House of Representatives.
Pass the kool aid, please.
I say so called “surplus” because our wonderfully elected officials decided to use SS/Payroll taxes to balance the General Fund/Budget. There’s voodoo economics and fuzzy accounting at its best.
Point I was trying to make is that the politicians “run” one way, but tend to “lead” another. Both sides do it. It’s organic to the process. The premise is that we have a choice yet the candidates are usually so much alike the “choice” is a blur. Bush vs. Kerry – two middle aged men, with the same education, with membership in the same secret club who agree on how this country should be managed 80% of the time.
And, of course, this last time we had real choice- Change or More Of The Same. The people who voted for change got more of the same and the people who voted for more of the same are still pissing and moaning because their guy isn’t the messenger.
Mad about the moochers, envious of the successful? Wall Streeters are considered successful, ambitious, etc yet they are the biggest moochers of late with the TARP and other bailout programs. No industry should be “protected” in a free and open society. Yet we’re told they need it or we will be faced with a deep and long lasting recession. How’s that playing out so far?
In May, 2008 we were getting $300+ stimulus checks from our wonderful Government because the economists told us “it will help us avoid a recession.” (Government giving away money must be a Liberal in the White House. No, wait, it wasn’t W’s doing the Dems made him. So much for a Leader and a Conservative. No, wait, W wasn’t a Conservative, he only “ran” on that, just didn’t lead that way. Give me a #%$&@ break.)
How many Red/Republicans/Conservatives here returned their checks? After all, only Blue/Democrat/Liberals would accept a handout, right?
Less than six months later we were in the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Would have been a fine time for someone to step up and say “enough, this system isn’t working, time for real change.” That would have been Leadership. It would be very painful to change our current system. And it will be very painful to continue it, as we are trying to do. There’s our choice. Which pain would the population bear?
Is the real issue what the tax rates are or that the Federal Income Tax itself is Unconstitutional? I think the latter but that gets no mention, just how much. As long as people get a perceived benefit from the system they will support it. With the occasional rant and rave when they feel they’re getting a lesser benefit than someone else.
I’ll stop getting automatic updates from this site, there’s nothing new here. Whine on sheeples; keep supporting your Purple Barneys.
January 17th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
“# Josh Says:
January 5th, 2010 at 11:01 am
2) Blood for Oil, etc, etc. Again, really hard to respond to this one because it is so ludicrous. But for this argument to hold true, you and your ilk would truly have to believe in your heart of hearts that Bush started two wars in the Middle East, put hundreds of thousands of troops in harms way and risked his entire presidential legacy, because he wanted a small group of his friends in some dark smoky room to be able to make millions of dollars on Oil futures contracts?”
I don’t buy into the whole conspiracy thing and I whole heartedly agree with the initial invasion of Afghanistan since *that* is where the terrorists were hiding/training/planning/based and aided by the Taliban in terms of being allowed in the country.
However, would you care to explain the logic behind invading Iraq if not for the purpose of greasing the war machine and enriching Haliburton? And, please, don’t even go the WMD route. A 3 year old could have seen that as bullshit because, as you well know, the Bush administration changed their story several times as to “why” they went into Iraq just before Rumsfeld resigned. And none of that “Saddam was suspected to have ties to Al Qaeda” either nor should you go the “Saddam gassed his people” route because we’d have been in both North Korea already as Kim Jong Il waived his WMDs around like big fluorescent dildos, taunting Bush, and we’d also have been in Somalia cleaning it up as it continues to suffer total anarchy, lawlessness and ethnic cleansing.
January 17th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Russ, I didn’t return any stimulus check because I didn’t get one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Second, if I did receive a stimulus check, I would not return it because it was MY MONEY in the first place. It isn’t a handout when I pay taxes and the government chooses to give my money back to me (but in my case, the government feels that I am too rich, even though I haven’t had a new car in five+ years and took less than three weeks of vacation in the last four years – and one of those vacations was my honeymoon!!!!). By my standards, I am far from rich.
To anyone that says that conservatives lack compassion, get real. The reality is that those that want to see Republicans be compassionate are those that are truly not worthy of ANY handout, but they know that they can scam the government, so they insist on “compassion” from the government. If you want compassion from the government, you are really saying, “give me money because I don’t feel like getting a job or contributing in any way to society.”
We have 501C3s for a reason – to do public good. The government SHOULD be limited to necessary services (police, military, roads). Tax benefits for donating to 501C3s should be increased (one way to do this – you get a deduction for charitable donations beyond the standard deduction) and 501C3s should be the ones to provide welfare type programs. I trust my church, a 501C3 organization that has its tax records reviewed yearly by a CPA and the IRS, to run a welfare program that hands money, food, etc out to the needy in an effecient and effective manner far more than I trust the government to do the same. Why, because my church, like most 501C3s, is run by honest and decent people who WANT to do good. These people work day jobs and want to help others during their time off through donations of their time, talents, and/or money.
You want to save this country, can’t we all agree to pay less taxes, increase the benefits for donating to 501C3s, and maybe increase the tax review of 501C3 records (let’s face it, although 95% of us are honest and decent, there are 5% who are dishonest and need to be found).
I think that you will find that if you give PEOPLE in grassroots organizations more money from local donors, you will find that there are MANY less people in need because communities will begin to take care of their own. And instead of feeling angry at being forced to pay taxes to an inefficient and ineffective government that mismanages social welfare programs, people will feel proud by seeing their money fund a 501C3 that positively helps those that DO need the help in their very own community.
I vote for getting the government out of my pocket and giving me my money back. Let me choose how to be compassionate. The government’s role should be limited to slight encouragement through tax benefits and increased monitoring to ensure no 501C3 fraud.
January 18th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
The item on standard deduction being unchanged is WRONG. There is a change. The additional standard deduction for real estate taxes paid has lapsed for 2010.
January 19th, 2010 at 10:20 am
Again, I hear people complaining how bad they have it. I encourage you to leave and go to all the other countries that will tax you less. Your whining will be missed.
January 19th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
Probably a little late in the day to join in on this discussion, but I’m dropping my tuppence worth in anyway.
Josh – loved the acceptance speech. Would definitely vote for you. In fact, I’ve formed a little fantasy political team based on the members posting here with three outsiders to fill in the corners so to speak. What posts are left open will up to your discretion to fill and I’ve more or less made up my own offices in any event. This *is* just a fantasy after all.
President – Josh
Vice President – Russ
Treasury Secretary – “Dr. No” (some of you will know who I mean)
Social Welfare Secretatry – Marci
Health Secretary – Cogipro
Secretary of Interior Conservation & Sustainable Energy in a Sensible Manner – my daughter
Secretary in Charge of Gleefully Ripping Up Any Law Not Abiding By The Constitution – me. (free of charge even)
That’s the Cabinet I’d vote for. Any takers?
January 19th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
Re: Robin’s Political Team
Can I add a self nomination for “Constitutional Enforcer” whereby any lawmaker who attempts to pass a bill deemed unconstitutional spends 5 minutes with me in the broom closet?w
January 19th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Robin,
I’m in.
Cogipro
January 19th, 2010 at 11:35 pm
@Duh,
Let me see if I get you right.
America has prospered under free market capitalism for 200+ years (and low taxes for at least 3/4 of that time). It went from a backwater group of colonies to the world’s largest economic superpower.
France, Spain, and the UK went from world economic superpower status at various points in their histories to stagnant socialist swamps in little over half a century.
You say you’re tired of my whining and I should move, where?, to France? You’re the one that wants the US to become France. Why don’t YOU go there instead of trying to remake the US in France’s image. Or stay here. It’s still a free country, after all. But don’t complain about me being vocal against Marxism. We still have freedom of speech here, after all. For now.
January 20th, 2010 at 12:48 am
F you to whoever thinks 100k plus is living rich….I’m sick of my hard earned money going to pay for some lazy ass dead beat who doesn’t contribute a thing to society…Get a job and work hard! I do and I pay out the ass for it. I’m tired of this, this country is teaching people to be lazy and in turn you will be rewarded with handouts….Thing need to change…
January 20th, 2010 at 1:09 am
My wife and I had dinner with a Canadian couple a few nights ago. The conversation migrated toward health care. Keep in mind they are both professionals and have made a good living. I asked them if they liked the Canadian system. They said it was OK. I then asked if they had ever been refused treatment or had to wait for testing. Their reply was, “Yes, but when this happens, we go to our PRIVATE doctor/clinic and pay upfront!”
So, if you are wealthy in Canada, you can have TWO health systems. Too bad if you don’t have the extra money to do so……the option then is to cross the border and seek treatment in the U.S.
I then asked him, “If you don’t mind a further personal question, what percentage of your income to you pay in Canadian Tax?” He answered, ” About fifty one (51) per cent”. His response was entirely unemotional. Much like the beaker frog in the ever increasing water temperature, this family has been CONDITIONED to pay 51% of their money to the government, and still has to pay out of pocket for what the government will not/cannot treat.
It is interesting that many people don’t care what percentage others have to pay in order to receive what the government promises them, yet history has shown those promises to be empty. And when the 51 percenters run out of money, they’ll come for whoever is left.
If you allow the government to more of your money, you need counseling.
January 20th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
Cogipro – Delighted to have you!
Marine33% – Make it ten minutes; after all, you want to make sure the errant law maker understands exactly how that “inconvenient piece of paper” was misinterpreted.
It abso-fraggen-lutely astonishes me how the IRS operates. Ever try calling them for help? I’ve done this for a couple of years and it never fails. IF they answer the phone, ask the rep question A, you get answer B. Call back, different rep, same question A, but now there’s answer C. Call back, yet a third rep, same question A and, you got it, answer D. And you would be amazed how annoyed they get when you inform them the conversation is being recorded for future verification in case of an audit.
This is the same agency that somehow lost/miscounted/othewise bungled $32B.
While I dislike paying taxes, I wouldn’t mind it as much if the silly IRS was actually, ya know, competent. Or if my money wasn’t being tossed about irresponsibly from one failed program to another. Or if the Federal government managed the same sort of accountable budgeting they demand from citizens. (To clarify, I’m not specifying either party, I agree with the “purple barney” concept. And thank-you, Russ, for etching the image of a bunch of Barneys yuk-yukking on the Congressional floor in my brain.)
Nor would I mind paying for certain welfare services for the truly needy citizen. But there’s the rub, isn’t it? How much of our money goes to supporting able bodied, non-citizens? I’m not even going into the subject of welfare cheats done by legal citizens. I’m sure we all know at least one personally who brags about “getting over”, who proudly tells you to your face how they are scamming you out of your money.
The sense of entitlement held by the people in this country astonishes me. It’s like the old story about the Ant and Grasshopper and we’re being over run by a bloody huge infestation.
Ok, climbing off my soap box for now.
January 20th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Climbing back on my soap box again.
Health Care Reform. As a recently retired RN, this naturally caught my interest. How long has the American public been whining for it? And what’s that old say ing – “Be careful what you wish for”?
Has anyone actually tried to read the first two versions? I got as far as pages 19 and 20 respectively and just gave up. The convolutions in those things were practically awe inspiring. These documents were obviously penned by people who used a twisted pretzel for a straight rule.
When I was going to college, a professor of mine whom I greatly respected once told us that if we couldn’t explain our thesis fully in a one page summary, we obviously didn’t know what the heck we were talking about.
It really would be much easier to just change a few current rules of our existing system. An applicant can not be turned down for a pre-existing condition, any procedure costing the insurance company more than “X” number of dollars should be reviewed by an independent board of physicians (not company accountants) and the cost of routine diagnostic procedures should be standardized across the board.
That last one would really save a bundle as I know from personal experience. Some years ago, I had cause to have a lower GI MRI done. (I didn’t have health insurance by my own choice, preferring to set up my own personal money market account for medical needs rather than pay into a system I might never use.) The receptionist asked me what insurance coverage I had, and curious, I asked her what the difference would be. She replied that depending on what provider I had, the procedure would cost “anywhere from $1400 to $1600.” Yes, I can quote that because it’s still a vivid memory even after more than a decade. I told her I was paying out of pocket. She responded. “Oh, well in that case, it will cost you $800.”
Interesting bit of math, isn’t it?
January 20th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Financial Samurai Says: It is disappointing to have to pay 35% of income to the gov’t. I point out that one would need to have a gross adjusted income of $4 million to pay 34% in Federal Tax. An income of $500,000 will pay just over 27% income tax. An income of $100,000, just under 12%. Europeans, Canadians, paying 50+percent don’t whine because they recieve benefits that they cherish. Americans, for the most part, seem to cherish big take home so they can outspend their neighbors on junk that ends up in the trash.
January 21st, 2010 at 12:07 am
Greg says: “Europeans, Canadians, paying 50+percent don’t whine because they recieve [sic] benefits that they cherish”.
That sounds a lot like “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.” Where have I heard that before?
Then there’s Plank #2 of the Communist Manifesto:
“2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.”
Greg says: “American’s[sic] for the most part, [sic] seem to cherish big take home [pay] so they can outspend their neighbors on junk that end[sic] up in the trash.”
Yes. It’s their money that they traded hours of their lives to receive. It’s theirs to do with what they like: spend on junk, give away, throw away, invest, or whatever. It’s called freedom. It’s certainly better than some bureaucrat deciding where people’s life energy should be spent.
January 21st, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am – Stuck in the middle with you.
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 21st, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Why should I pay a higher percentage of my income in income tax? Oh, that’s right, I forgot. I worked nights putting myself through undergraduate and graduate school and then worked 80 hour weeks to make my business a success. I keep 39 individuals employed. Yes, I can see how I’m the enemy. How silly of me not to understand that you are entitled to everything and anything you want. I believe I’ll lay off 10 or 12 of my employees so I can pay higher taxes. Because, God forbid, you have to actually go to work to get that 65 inch TV when we all know the Government owes you one. Shame on me for not understanding that it’s not your fault that you bought three times the house you could afford. I’m sure that’s my fault too and I should be happy to pay for your house. I’ll sign off now. I’m going to get in my paid for car and drive home to my paid for home.
January 23rd, 2010 at 3:19 pm
There are good people who are in unfortunate circumstances. They may need help for a period of time to get back on their feet. They may need help for the rest of their lives. Regardless, they deserve to live a dignified life. Also, the lower two tax brackes are just wrong and should be eliminated.
On the other side, there are many others who take advantage of the system. They end up taking from the faceless who bust their ass working through college and then end up working 80-100 hour weeks just to keep their job in the 35% tax bracket. I am starting to question my “success”. Why not take a job at 25% of what I make and actually get to enjoy my family and make memories while my kids are still young? For those of you who think I am “rich”, please understand the price so many at higher tax brackets really pay.
January 25th, 2010 at 11:14 pm
To all tho’s who think the 15% bracket should set their standards higher by going back to college and get a better degree. That is a good thought but then again who is going to fry your burger wash your clothes clean your house drive you to work. It takes tho’s people working for a smaller income to keep the world turning. I am not saying raise the rich to a higher bracket but lets not forget tho’s that worker that stands behind a grill all day long so we can have a nice meal. Or tho’s that press our clothes so we don’t have to. I am thankful for the 15% bracket.
January 26th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
The tax code needs to be restructured, but imposing any kind of consumption tax is not only inherently regressive but it also stifles demand more than income taxes. I believe the middle income brackets need to go down a couple percentage points, and that 2 new brackets should be created to separate the middle class from the truly wealthy. It’s ridiculous to treat someone making $500k a year the same as if they were to make $5m…and it’s further ridiculous when one realizes that the majority of earnings for the rich are taxed at capital gains rates (which are much lower than the middle income brackets).
Putting a tax on goods gobbles up a greater percentage of discretionary income for the working poor and middle class, and likely would have its effects bleed into non-discretionary earnings as well. If we were all machines and were 100% rational, a tax on consumption designed to generate the same amount of revenue as a system of income taxes does would yield no difference in outcomes. However, neither people nor the market are completely rational and as such income tax payers internalize the costs of such taxes better than if they do for consumption ones.
Two common examples of which I’m both guilty of –
(1) Paying in excess on my income taxes throughout the year and receiving the difference in the form of a tax return. Although I can adjust my withholding, and it would be rational to do so versus giving the federal government an interest free loan, the marginal difference in my bi-weekly paychecks is so insignificant (about $50 a check) that I decide to go along with it and take my approx $1,500 return in a lump at the end of the year instead.
(2) Buying goods online in which I’m not taxed on the transaction – The amount of “savings” one has in doing this is generally so small over the course of a year that even accounting for it is generally considered immaterial (meaning, it technically should be reported but 99.9999% of people don’t). However, although my $20 book may only save me $1.20 in sales taxes if I purchase online, and despite what basic economic 101 models would suggest, my quantity demand for offline purchases that (for the sake of argument, we assume B&M and online prices are identical) where the sales tax is imposed is very close to 0.
My two examples of my common irrationality (in a generic sense) show both that I’m willing and easily able to internalize the reduced spending power income taxes create whereas my demand for goods that are taxable drops sharply. Given that I’m smack in the middle the 25% bracket and have been blessed with decent enough luck to hold my job even through this crisis, higher tax brackets don’t make me averse to trying to make more money. It’d be even less sane for someone in the highest brackets to desire to earn less money simply because they are in the highest bracket. The demand to supply labor by workers is far less elastic to income taxes than the demand for goods at various sales tax rates.
So, all this fair tax talk is a nice idea for those that would stand to save on their taxes as a result (the highest earners)…but for middle earners the offset of income taxes to be made up by consumption taxes will hurt their spending power and the general velocity of money, while those in the lowest brackets will shoulder the biggest realized tax increase despite being the least able to afford it.
Please try not to have the cynical and narrow view that everyone or even the majority of people in the lowest brackets “deserve” to be poor. As automation and globalization and conglomeration are the economic realities of today, so to are the casualties of such movements towards efficiency that any one of us could fall victim to despite our efforts to be good and hard workers. Trickle down simply doesn’t work, and to adopt a system of taxation that assumes it does is only to further divide the classes and reduce/marginalize the so-called “middle class”.
January 28th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Check this out: In 2009 I was in the top 35% tax bracket(actually the last 9 years I have been in that bracket). I live in MN where I pay another 8% on my taxable income. I also pay a few thousand in AMT and the tax law disallows my personal exemptions for wife and kids. I also lose a few thousand in itemized deductions because I make over $300,000. All told, I estimate my top tax bracket is about 55%. And……this is with the so called “Bush tax cuts” lol. Can’t wait for socialist obama and his lemming democrats to raise the tax brackets even higher. What a pathetic lot they are.
January 29th, 2010 at 11:23 am
An Open Letter to Republican “Leadership”:
It is extremely frustrating to see how incompetent the Republican Party is in communicating its message to the American public. Normally when you are on the right side of an issue, and have facts and logic to back you up, making and winning an argument is easy. However, you have consistently found a way to make this extremely difficult. Everyone (including the President it appears) now realizes that 2010 is only about one thing: Jobs. Why don’t you have a clear, concise message that explains to the American public exactly why we have not seen any improvement in the labor market? Since you apparently need it, let me offer you some advice. For the next 9 months you need to be holding press conferences every day to whomever will listen. You need to repeat the exact same information, every day. It should go something like this:
“Everyone wants to know where the jobs are. Jobs are created in the private sector, not the public sector. Public sector jobs can only be created by robbing one part of the economy (though taxes) or robbing from our children (though debt). Real, sustainable economic and job growth comes from private companies. Specifically Small Business which account for 75% of the jobs in this country. Now I want everyone listening to me right now to pretend that you are a Small Business owner. You need to decide when you should start to spend your limited amount of resources on investing in new jobs and growing your business. But there are a lot unknowns out there that scare you. Specifically, four central parts of the Democrats agenda terrify you. They are:
- The prospect of significant increases in taxes on your employees health insurance plans.
- The prospect of large increases in your energy costs due to Cap and Trade
- The prospect of huge increases to your labor and benefits costs due to Unionization from the Employee Intimidation Act (Card Check)
- The prospect of increased Federal and Capital Gain Tax Rates in 2011 from the expiration of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts.
Now please ask yourself: would you make significant long term commitments to new employees facing these potential changes? Of course you wouldn’t, and neither will any other employers until these uncertainties are removed. If we want to see real job growth in this country again, we must remove the Democrats from power in 2010. Only then will employers start to regain their confidence and optimism.”
Now is that so hard to do? Even you guys can memorize four bullet points and recite them every day. You may think you are already doing this, but you aren’t. You are all over the place on this stuff. If you connect the dots for them the American people will get it. They’ll realize that the priorities of the Democrats are not their priorities and are keeping them from finding a good job.
January 29th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Having taken tax and estate planning courses in law school I find this furor over income tax rates very intriguing.
One item I learned that I would like to pass along is that the “rich” (define it as you will) don’t make real money using wages and salary. That is a fool’s game. They have capital gains and investments to rely on.
Although the tax code has provisions which are technically available for use by all citizens, the reality is that only those with large amounts of money can utilize them to the greatest benefit.
I would have to say my favorite ideas in this thread are as follows:
-Remove career politicians from the equation with term limits; and
-Reduce the budget and hold government and individuals accountable (don’t get me started on bailouts…)
January 29th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
I work a part-time job and I WANT federal taxes taken out of my weekly check. But they say that I am not in the bracket to have any taken out. I am trying to get it changed over to zero on my filling status. Cause I am afraid that by the end of the year I will be the one paying due to thier mistake. (NICELY PUT)
January 30th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Josh, I wish you would send your recent commentary regarding how to create jobs in this country to your local Republican Congressman and Senators. If you don’t mind, I will be sending your commentary to mine!
January 30th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
I am sick and tired of people whining about the “wealthy” (and I am not one of them) paying their fair share…you don’t even know what the term means. Fair share means that everybody pays the same percentage. For example, 10% 0f $25,000 is $2,500. 10% of $25,000,000 is $2,500,000. THAT is paying your fair share. You whiners mostly pay nothing, and in fact collect money from the governement and do nothing to produce income. Most “wealthy” people are responsible for creating jobs which creates a larger tax base and consequently, more revenue to the treasury…all you whiners want is to collect money from the government off the backs off those with a work ethic!
February 1st, 2010 at 9:56 am
Thanks Marci.
I actually did send that along to the House Republican Leadership. My specific Reps and Senators wouldn’t really care for this message. Took a shot on the House Leadership but I’m not holding my breath. Expect to get some form letter back and continue to watch them flounder with their message like they have for the last 20 years.
Hopefully you will have better luck!
Josh
February 1st, 2010 at 10:11 am
i made the same amount of money this year as i did last year and im getting less money back then the year before.i got just a little over 7,000 last year and i am only getting 4,000 this year and nothing has changed on my end,its Because some idiot wanted to change things and that messed it up for everyone.i count on my tax return every year to get the things my children need.the new tax rules are bs!what the hell is obama thinking?
February 1st, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Get over the high tax rates…
The majority of American’s complain about what they can’t have and they overspend and put themselves into massive debt, yes it sucks for the ones of us who can live within our means and work for a living but that’s all part of this grand scheme.
The rich will never get taxed to hell and back, Republican’s say they will increase taxes and help the rich, the Democrats take the rich peoples money just as much and act innocent. They are equally guilty, think about who your political head figures are friends with, it’s not the plumber down the road or the manager of your local gas station.
Then to mention we give out section 8, welfare, food stamps like they are free… But not if you are a single man raising 2 kids… On the other hand I know multiple women who waste the little money they do make on booze and drugs raising 2 kids home free paid for by our wonderful government, why work when you don’t have to?
I’m 26 and I’ll make about 44k this year, it’s not horrible but I used to think it wasn’t a bad amount of money. I drive a ‘02 BMW and have a motorcycle I ride during the spring and summer, I take vacations, go places and buy basically whatever I feel like I want. I budget my money well, pay my bills and save money.
IMO, this country is screwed there are too many bleeding hearts, too many people that don’t care and too much power and nearly nobody to even consider stepping up to it, this previous health care bill was proof of that.
I myself? I’m planning on moving to the Netherlands after grad school where there is a much higher tax rate and half of the issues and corruption in the government.
February 2nd, 2010 at 2:41 pm
In response to:
GC Says:
October 14th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
umm…by wealthy you mean all those doctors, lawyers, businessmen and double-earner families of mid-level exec + nurse or some such combination, right? I mean, those in the 28% and up categories are not all filthy-rich idle millionaires.
I get tired of people telling me that after my husband completes his seemingly endless education & training in medicine (right now he’s making less than most first-year teachers) he deserves to pay out 28% of his income in taxes (or even better, that he should pay more!) while at the same time not being able to claim any deductions for his college & medical school loans (which are comparable to a good-size mortgage for many). We’ll be paying those off for decades–but since we’re so “rich” we should be taxed out the behind. Right. So that’s the reward for people who scrimp, save, borrow, and work hard to better themselves.
Dear GC,
That’s exactly why you and your husband should stop trying to better yourselves and start spending more time trying to better other people’s lives. Any spare time you have should be spent smoking dope – hopefully prescribed by your doctor.
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:31 am
In a capitalist economy, people who are rich and successful have earned it (besides the few people like Paris Hilton who were born wealthy etc.). It isn’t fair for an entrepreneur to work his/her ass off for years but then get the shit taxed out of them when they can finally enjoy their success.
February 3rd, 2010 at 3:22 pm
I agreed with you Michael.
Rich people don’t sit there and get rich, they all earned it. They educate themself and work hard for their money. They shouldn’t have to pay higher tax because they’re rich. What are the poor do? Sit there whine and apply for health care and food stamps.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:32 am
The International Corporations have nothing to do with mom & pop starting a business in America, just as Capitalism is not Free Enterprise. Some posters here have confused these issues.
The problem is that International Corporations have so much power & capital now they can buy our legislators with campaign donations and the ads to snow us. (This will be heightened with the new Corporate stacked Supreme Court 5/4 decision that allows previously restricted monetary influence into our elections to be unrestricted hence forward) China, who owns most of our debt, can now strongly influence America by backing or working against whoever will be best for their interests. This might profit someone somewhere, but it won’t profit most Americans and it won’t be in America’s interests.
Wake up about taxation: Taxes keep our world operational: Little things like: Roads, police, firemen, medicare, social security, medicaid, public health in times of epidemics, education, clean water, clean food…not to mention national defense. OF NOTE: Recently heard that CO Springs, which bought the small is good kool aid & cut taxes back some time ago, now have had to cut back their fire dept and turn out 1/3 of the street lights and garbage is accumulating in the park.
Smart government (not small) is the operative word and we won’t get that until the special interest (large int corporation money) is removed as much as possible from the equation.
Get the damn corporate money out of our government & our legislators…maybe with Campaign Finance Reform. Corporations are concerned with profit for their CEOs and shareholders…next quarter or at the end of the year. Corporations are not in the business of long term planning for earth, their neighbors, our grandchildren, our infrastructure, our society. Good governement is responsive to its people not its campaign donors.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:43 am
Another misunderstanding I just noticed. That somehow “the wealthy” create jobs for us poor folk, when it is actually small businesses that do most of the job creation. The small businesses that are getting tax breaks this year & hopefully some stimulus money soon.
Stimulus: I saw some people poo pooing it here. They don’t realize this was not Obama’s solution : it was the solution of all major economists because we were about to go into complete economic free fall. Most of the disagreement amongst them was that some didn’t think it was enough to pull us out!
Good news about the Bank Bailout: the biggest ones have paid it back.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:59 am
One more thing: Corporations pay almost no tax due to loop holes and off shoring and even some dishonesty…Just like many in the upper tax brackets. That should be corrected.
When Warren Buffett, the third richest man in the world, said his secretary paid more in taxes than he did and that that wasn’t right, it made an impression on me.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece
February 4th, 2010 at 7:27 am
Wow, some folks on this thread have kept on it for weeks…hello Josh!
I’m a proponent of the following-
1. Equal tax rates across the board: Low wage earner vs. high…either side you’re on, you would be paying an equal amount proportionate to your income. 30k or 300k, the dent to your pocket is just as big according to your income. Your contribution to social programs, Medicare, or whatever is fixed.
The rich shouldn’t have to compensate for the poor’s wallow. Otherwise, what incentives are you offering the well-to-do for rightfully following their dreams of financial security? On the other hand, what incentives are you giving the poor for chasing the same dream if you’re promising to tax them for all they’re worth if they dared climb up that ladder of financial security? Progressive (and excessive) taxation punishes the ones who have worked hard to get “there”, while dissuading the ones who seek to get there from taking the initiative to better their lives. I pay car insurance worth 4.5% of the value of my car, annually. I could have bought the $100K car and coughed up $4.5k to insure it. Instead, I chose the $50k car and am paying $2.25k for the same coverage. Get my drift?
2. Lower corporate taxes: Punishing companies means driving businesses offshore, thus, lost jobs. Big corporations or middle sized ones, the heavier the taxes levied on them, the sooner they’ll start packing for Mumbai. Again, apply equal taxes to all…from start-ups to “serving you since 1891” types. In the end, they all hire you and me, and keep jobs in our neighborhoods where they should remain. This aligns with getting off Mr. and Mrs. Rich’s backs who hire more of yours truly because they can afford to after they’ve had more to spend post-taxes.
Contrary to what some have suggested on this thread, it’s not the hard worker’s fault for getting rich while the poor remain stifled. Many have gone from rags to riches due to sheer determination and smarts. They didn’t count on charity or hand-outs to get there. Yet, they tend to offer a helping hand to those who are less fortunate than them because they’ve been there before. It’s the trickledown effect in its best form. Moral of the story: let’s all get rich……but wait, I wonder what Uncle Sam has to say about it.
February 4th, 2010 at 8:34 am
Dear GrannyGB,
At least one bank is not paying the money back. It is a sham transaction. The Federal Reserve bought some of Bank of America’s assets – so the Fed gave more money to the bank and the bank gave bad assets and the money back to the fed. Nothing changed except a ridiculous bailout for an organization that should have been run better and should have been allowed to fail. And now, our government has more bad assets on their books and BofA is doing much better. I hate BofA for this transaction and won’t ever be their customer. I hate our President for allowing such a sham to occur and then having the arrogance to brag about it – thinking that most of the American people are too stupid to see the truth.
My husband and I checked and re-checked that our bank DID NOT get bail out money. If they did, we would have switched.
As for China influencing our elections, you are wrong. Read the Supreme Court decision. You and the President can try all you want to make his state of the union speech seem true, but they are not. Read the Supreme Court decision. Also, it is amusing that you want to “worry” about something that is not true and at the same time bash the Supreme Court for upholding free speech, when you are on a message board using your free speech rights!
February 4th, 2010 at 10:58 am
Granny:
You seem like a nice enough person but you are way off base on a lot of points. I can’t reply to them all so I’ll focus on the one that annoys me the most at the moment: Big Government/Big Spending. I don’t know anything about Colorado Springs so I’ll just stipulate your point that they “cut taxes” and now there are no lights, garbage all over the place, and 1 Fireman covering the whole city
. Do you really think this is because they don’t have enough money to provide street lights, garbage pick-up and a fire department? They have plenty of money for all of that and much, much more! Colorado Springs (like every other city, county and state in America) has more than enough money to provide the basic services that everyone wants and needs but they WASTE IT ALL! They waste it on hack, government position that no one needs. They waste most of it on huge pensions for their employees. Look at any town budget (I’ve looked at mine in detail) and you’ll see that 70-80% of the budget is on salaries and benefits. At any given time, most municipalities have more “retired” people getting huge benefits and pension payouts than they do have actual employees working (and I say that with a smile on my face) for the city/state.
Do all of you guys get huge pensions when you “retire” at age 45 with full benefits? I don’t. I fund my own 401(k) like 90% of America. I need to work into my 60’s, like all able-bodies people should. Why do these union public employees get to retire at 45? Does this benefit the “public” they serve? Does this help keep the “lights on”? No, it benefits unions and that’s it. Imagine how much more we could do, how many more taxes dollars would be available for other things, if we just treated public employees like everyone else in America? But government doesn’t care about being efficient. Doesn’t care about being good stewards of the taxpayers money. Why? Because they can just keep raising taxes and running deficits to pay for whatever they want. And if people complain about paying too much taxes they just turn off a couple street lamps or skip a garbage pick-up day. Then they say “See, if you don’t give us more money we cant provide basic services!” They don’t address the real, structural issues driving their costs out of control. They scare you into saying there won’t be anyone to put out your fire or protect you from the burglar that breaks into your house!
While we’re on the topic of police. We need more of them out on the street protecting us right? We need more taxes to get more cops “walking a beat”. Right? No! This very morning I their were some city employees cutting down branches of trees on my street that were getting too close to power lines, sidewalks, etc. Aside from the fact that there was one guy cutting, one guy watching the cutter, and one guy watching the guy watching, there was also a State Trooper sitting there watching it all. Because that’s what is the UNION CONTRACT! Unions say we needs cops watching tree cutters instead of walking a beat where they are needed. Since we have 20% cutting trees at any given moment, and 20% out on disability, we obviously need to raise taxes to hire 40% more cops.
Listen, I can’t go on any more it’s too frustrating. But I’ll leave you with this. Obama just submitted a 3.8TRILLION dollar budget that BORROWS FROM CHINA $1.6 TRILLION. Do you think the federal government really couldn’t provide the basic services we need for only 2.4 trillion dollars. Isn’t 2.4 trillion dollars enough money. Do you think there’s any waste in there that could be cut? Obama projects that National Debit will be almost 25 trillion dollars in the next decade. That’s his projection, not mine. Do you want to tell me what our country will be like with 25 trillion in debt? How will it function? What kind of future will my 3 kids have to look forward to?
Government needs to be smaller and it needs to spend a lot less. If anyone says it can’t be done they are delusional. It’s just not politically popular to make those tough decisions. But we don’t elect Presidents to be the popular cool kid. We elect them to make the tough decisions that are in our Country’s best interest.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:02 am
GrannyB…corporations, in fact, pay double taxation. While they may get a break on some taxes on earnings, their dividends are then paid out of those taxed earning and the investors pay taxes on them again. And before you blow off you anti corp big mouth, the majority of Americans invest in stock or mutual funds. It is also were the unions invest for the “workers” retirement plans.
The big businesses provide many of the jobs, and yes, the little business provide many jobs also. The neat thing is that these jobs are productive and provide profit. The government provides jobs also that suck up our tax money. Where you are deadly wrong is the the Federal government needs to provide, “Roads, police, firemen, Medicare, social security, Medicaid, public health in times of epidemics, education, clean water, clean food…not to mention national defense. “…most of those are projects that should be provided by state and local governments and many are just handouts to the people who refuse to work and complain the most. Without welfare, Medicaid, public health (which people should provide for themselves) we would have plenty of cash for roads, national defense, etc. This country survived for most of its life without federal income tax and we did fine. I have no problem helping those that TRULY need it, but most welfare recipients are just parasites. Pretty soon, the parasites will want us to pay for their expensive tattoos, cars, cigarettes and flat screen TVs as they sit in the emergency room whining that they can’t afford health care.
February 5th, 2010 at 11:57 am
A few weeks away but not much has changed; lots of noise, some substance and a whole lot of bad/misinformation.
401K’s, IRA’s and other “Retirement Benefits” are just ways for the Government to have more control. They tell you how much you can put it, when you can take it out, when you have to take it out, etc. If you were a farmer; would you rather pay taxes on the seed or the harvest? Anyone contributing over the company match is adhering to conventional wisdom. While the number of people participating in 401K’s IS NOT 90% there are a lot who do.
All these plans started with pensions; a way for Gov’t to “reward” the largest corporations by allowing them to deduct “compensation” without having to pay it to the worker. They became quite popular during WWII. There was Gov’t imposed rationing and wage freezes so instead of a raise workers got enrolled in a pension plan. The Corps avoided the freeze and didn’t have to pay payroll taxes Corps got control by putting “golden handcuffs” on the employee. But the Gov’t got more control and influence on big business. Pension plans lead to SEP’s, KEOGH, 401K’s, IRA’s, ROTH’s, etc. First came the plans for giving tax benefits to the self-employed and smaller organizations, and then came the plans to earn favor with the voters while giving more control to the Gov’t.
But we’re happy, we get a tax break. Wait until you harvest that baby!
The last time the Gov’t needed money they hit Social Security. At the time 401K’s were in their infancy, the real money was in SS. So they began taxing SS after telling us all our lives that it would never be taxed. First it was “only” 50% because that was the part your employer contributed and it had never been taxed before. We took that pill like good little citizens. And, in typical “give an inch, they take a mile” philosophy, the Gov’t can now tax you on 85% of your SS benefits. Now THAT is truly dual taxation. You already paid taxes on the additional 35% when you earned it. (Corps are not taxed twice on dividends; the recipient pays the taxes, not the Corp.)
Where will the Gov’t go the next time (coming soon) they need money? Guesses anyone?
Now we’ve all been told “You need to invest to outpace inflation” but has anyone ever been told to invest for a recession? Where’s your asset allocation for that?
Keep drinking the Kool Aid.
As for an older post – Robin – Moi as second fiddle? Never! If I can’t run this country as a totalitarian regime then I’ll find another country to conquer and pillage.
February 7th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
Astonishing posts here. The total lack of economic understanding is staggering. I see some good ones, but for anyone who thinks high government taxation for any entity is a good thing, I have a bridge in NY I would like to sell you. Honestly, what possible line of thinking could lead you to conclude that burning money on handouts and government administrative costs is a good thing? There is absolutely nothing the government does that cannot be accomplished more efficiently by charity, local association, and good old fashioned businesses.
Government needs to strive to have a minimal impact in the market place. The more efficient the market is, the lower the prices will be, and the higher the average standard of living will be. Government can only steal wealth and redistribute it to its cronies, and demolish US lives and gear in the middle of some desert in the Middle East, charging its oversight fees the whole way. The staggering military costs, social security, and medicare alone will literally bankrupt this country.
Government needs to get small and lean, and it needs to do this QUICKLY. We are marching mindlessly towards sovereign default. Higher taxes can actually damage the tax base, further aggravating the financial issues. Cutting taxes frees up businesses and individuals to take care of themselves and their loved ones.
Check out downsizedc.org, campaignforliberty.com, http://www.free-nefl.com, mises.org, http://www.cato.org, and many others.
February 7th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Addendum … when a corporation pays high taxes, the cost of doing business is passed on to YOU! YOU are paying the corporation’s taxes! If a corporation has set a goal of $10 million in profit, the only thing that will make the product cost more are the taxes. Same goes for the doctor, lawyer, and so on. Professional fees reflect the high taxation. Lower taxation leaves greater room for competition. Prices drop. Everyone benefits.
Cap and trade and all other similar schemes of indirect taxation are still just higher bills for YOU, no matter what tax bracket you find yourself in.
February 7th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Marci – The BofA and most recent Bank bailouts (there have been a few over the decades) started with the TARP/Economic Recovery Act of 2008/HR1424 during the Bush Administration, so your hate needs to be directed towards Bush as well as Obama. There’s enough BS from both sides to go around, and around and around.
And the bad assets are not on the Gov’t books. The Act also allowed for the Treasury to buy Preferred Shares only. You have to dig deep to see that the assets were “purchased” and are on the books of The Fed. The Fed is privately owned NOT a GSE or any other fancy use of words or phrases. The Fed can slice up the assets and sell them part and parcel to whom ever wants to buy them and some have been purchased. Of course, in the end (which will take years, see RTC if the Fed were to ever lose money in that transaction they will just bill the Gov’t.
If you want to work within the current system, demand your elected officials use the Social Security Trust fund to buy those Preferred Shares. The Shares pay 5% for the first 5 years and 9% thereafter. Congress has been raiding the SS Trust Fund since the 1980 and only leave an IOU. No interest, nada. At least this way the Trust Fund might be in a position to pay everyone who contributed at least up to the amount they paid in. Right now, it can’t do that.
Josh – You bring up an interesting point about our elected officials. So I’ll throw out a question to anyone who wants to respond; should our elected officials (locally and nationally) represent and vote as their constituents wish (at least those that voice their opinion) or should they vote as they see appropriate?
I raise this question as a result of the TARP/Bank Bailout of 2008. I heard many members of Congress say 60-70% of their constituents were against the plan. One chuckled when told of this percentage with a comment “I wish it was that close, 90% of my constituents are against it.” Yet all of them voted for it. So did these members of Congress show leadership by not representing the minds of their constituents?
As I said in a previous post, the Bear Sterns/Lehman Bros. event was a great time for a true leader to step up and say “enough, this system isn’t working” and try a new plan. But they quake in the face of adversity and go along with the status quo.
You’re right about the Gov’t having to be smaller but no one is going to vote themselves out of a job or run the risk of being unable to “bring home the bacon” to their community.
For all our so called prosperity, I’ll broach another question; who really prospers when the system runs on debt?
Sorry, I can’t spend more time clarifying my responses but like many who post here, we can go on and on. Just keep it real folks. If you don’t like the system, you shouldn’t like it under Bush or Obama.
And in the spirit set by Nick; http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/reports/document5hp1207.pdf and
February 8th, 2010 at 10:54 am
Russ – An interesting question you raise about whether on not politicians should do what the people want or what they believe is “right”. As a rule, I believe our elected officials should always do what the voters demand of them. If you don’t believe in that, then you shouldn’t live in this country. However, you use as an example (TARP), probably the one exception that proves this rule. As a Conservative, something like TARP is anathema to me. As it is to Liberals who never want to help “Wall Street” over “Main Street”. This universal disdain for TARP is probably why I begrudgingly supported its use and actually view it as a moderate success as of now. The suddenness and ferocity of the credit market collapse was (hopefully) a unique issue that required (hopefully) a unique solution. TARP was a success, in my opinion, because it did calm the market and bring liquidity to an area in desperate need of it. What would have happened without it? Unknown, but it could have been much worse than it is now. But its real success was that it was treated, for the most part, like a true “loan” from the taxpayers rather than a hand-out. Half of the money has actually been paid back with interest! I never thought that would happen. Who hasn’t paid it back? Well Fannie, Freddie, AIG, Chrysler and GM. That money is gone, never to be recovered. That, especially the UAW hand-outs (OK, maybe it wasn’t from TARP, but same principle) was a horrible deal. But for probably a net cost of lets call it $350B, we averted a true “Depression”. Probably as a good a deal as you’ll get with the Federal government being involved. Now the fact that Obama want to take the money WE ACTUALLY GOT PAID BACK and use it on more handouts is infuriating to me but that’s another rant…..
So, to your original question, why is going against the people’s will with TARP OK, but it’s not OK to Socialize the healthcare industry against the will of the people? Or pass a Global Warming Energy Tax against the will of the people? Or pass Illegal Alien Amnesty against the will of the people? Well those are purely partisan issues. When only one party thinks it’s a good idea, and the public is against it, well they are the deciding, and most important vote. TARP was hated by all, which probably meant there was some good in it somewhere…………..
February 8th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
TARP essentially rewarded bad business decisions. Hardly an action of a truly open and free society. Anyone can put any spin they want on it. (i.e. Too big to fail.) But most business owners know, if they screw up they could be out of business. I say most because obviously some can screw up and get paid by the Government to stay in business. Nice, very nice. If that’s how you think this country should run I would ask for which Article or Section of the Constitution you deem gives authority to the Federal Government to decide which businesses get subsidized and which do not.
I used TARP because everyone knows of it and I just happen to be in front of the TV when it was going on. I, for one, was surprised so many elected officials were willing to admit they were voting against the wishes of their constituents. Those officials should not be shocked if their constituents decide to vote in someone who will listen.
I did not vote for anyone who voted for the TARP. I particularly and strongly resented Paulson’s attempt to add Section 8 to the original plan which stated “Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.” How does that float your boat? Paulson was a member of the Cabinet trying to circumvent powers established and REQUIRED under the Constitution. The attempt alone is criminal. And his reasoning for it being there was more ridiculous than his attempt.
Obama stated he wanted to use $30 Billion of the re-paid funds for local and regional banks to lend (i.e. add liquidity) in their communities. I’m not supporting it, I’m just clarifying. The $30 Bill will not go towards Union handouts but to try and help smaller sized businesses get access to funds/liquidity. Obama’s first stimulus plan had provisions in to help smaller businesses get funds subject to a checklist. Even companies that qualified under the plan couldn’t get money because they didn’t do business with the right banks. The right banks were the big banks, the ones involved in the TARP. Read into that what you will.
As for my original question, it was general in nature. Should elected officials vote the will of the people or vote as they see fit? I thought the argument might be in cases of national security. As for your response, you think it’s OK when you agree with the decision but it’s not OK when you don’t. Also very nice. Kind of like what I’ve said before “If your guy is in the White House, he can do no wrong, and if he’s not your guy, he can do no right.” And before you read too much into that please see my first sentence in the third paragraph above.
The question can be debated but I doubt there is a wrong or right answer.
February 8th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
# Gwen Says:
October 7th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Those of you rich folks in the top 35% tax bracket need to stop whining. You don’t get to whine. I hope this administration taxes the beejesus out of you all…it’s time you paid your fair share and get with the program. It’s only fair the wealthy pay more out of their millions and billions of dollars to subsidize the rest of us who need it the most. We are struggling in this recession and it’s time to fix the problem – by taxing the rich!
*****************
This is insanity. If you are not working 17 hour days, 7 days a week and busting your hump to make whatever amount of money you make, then it’s all mine, not yours. It’s not my responsibility to lift you up, get your A$$ up off the couch, put down the remote and get to work. I am a self made person who has paid my dues for 22 years with the work ethic mentioned above, anything less than that doesn’t get my attention. Socialism is not what the USA was built on, if that’s what you want, you need to move. Please.
February 9th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Well Russ, obviously I’m a Socialist because I think TARP did help stabilize the economy. I never even knew myself how “big government” I was. But I still say short term loans to stabilize capital markets are much better than handouts that we will never see again (Stimulus debate anyone?). I’d hate to see where the Dow would be today if BOA or CIti (or both) failed and people making $250k a year with great credit couldn’t get a loan without a gun and rubber mask.
We’ll agree to disagree.
February 9th, 2010 at 11:07 am
Well, Josh, if you wish to proclaim yourself an obvious Socialist you are free to do so. It is still a quasi free country.
February 9th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Disbro…I agree with you totally…I did the same…this is the land of Equal OPPORTUNITY…not equal wealth. While some sat on their butts and inherited wealth, most worked their asses off without whining like little bitches.
Gwen…get off your ass and use your tattoo, money, new car payment money and cigarette money for health care. Work your butt off to get ahead, instead of simply putting your time in for an hourly wage….and I’m not one of the “wealthy” that you think should support your lazy ass. I am a disabled veteran (from wounds received in combat) who wishes he had the opportunity to work as I once did before the effects of the war incapacitated me….and while we’re re on that subject. no, I am not ant-military and anti-war.
February 10th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
The problem as I’ve seen is that too much of our wealth is being redistributed out of country.Working class people are being hit from every angle.Manufacturing jobs are sent
overseas to procure a small additional profit,illegal immigrants flood the country to work in so called”jobs americans don’t want “,IT jobs that were supposed to replace displaced manufacturing jobs quickly evaporated to India.Americans can’t consume what they can,t afford without decent paying jobs that our government and business seem hell bent on removing from our shores. We send China our jobs,their economy and standard of living explodes-our economy stagnates,energy prices explode because of new markets and we borrow money from a communist country to float our sagging economy due to cash flow problems created by our government so we keep buyiny goods kept at artificially low prices due to undervalued currencies and th cycle perpetuates itself.I don’t mind paying a higher tax rate if I know it is being used wisely and produces a better standard of living for us.
February 10th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
KenC– Well said!
Thank you for your service and prayers for your future sucess.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Do any of you WHINERS know how to do simple math???? This country rewards innovation, hard work, and risk taking (of their own money). EVERYONE has educational opportunities. I’m sick of listening to the victim mentality of individual who goofed off in high school, didn’t attend college, and now they are they are suddenly victims of those who worked their tails off to become successful.
With the multitude of deductions for dependents, property taxes, child care, earned income credit, tuition, education, etc. etc. etc. those with small incomes pay a TINY amount of taxes, often less than $5,000 per year. I know, I HAVE BEEN THERE, DONE THAT! I have also worked my a$$ off for 32 years and worked my way up. What’s the reward???? NOW, I get to pay over $32,000 per year in Federal income taxes, plus 7% for social security, plus medicare, plus 8.25% sales tax, plus $4,500 property tax, plus a tax on every other bill….electricity, telephone, gasoline, etc. I am paying well over 50% of my income in taxes to ‘help” those who chose NOT to seek an education. I HAVE ZERO SYMPATHY FOR THEM!!!!
February 12th, 2010 at 12:28 am
KenC
Thanks for your sacrifice we can all be proud of your commitment.
…as for Gwen,
People paying at the 35% tax bracket are providing jobs and taking risks to start up businesses. In some cases having worked 18 hour days for 20 plus years(or more). The US is a great land of opportunity. Many of the folks preaching “tax the rich” (as an answer) come from a mind set that wealthy people don’t deserve to succeed. When and if the majority of Americans share Gwens opinion then two things come to mind.
1)The wealthy will simply leave the US and so will their money, jobs and tax revenue.
2)The brightest and best (who have no money now) will no longer locate in the US to get ahead….loss of human capitol. Loss of future brilliance=future money, jobs and tax revenue…as they succeed elsewhere!
I’m going to end this at that….and have a beer in KenC’s honor.
Respectfully,
18 HRs again
February 12th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
These are only Fed Tax rates. The State Tax Rate in NJ is between 7-10%. Throw in property taxes, social security tax, unemployment tax, and medicare tax and you quickly get to 50%. No one at any salary level should have to pay 50% of their income to the government. The individuals I know that make enough money to be taxed at the highest rates are business owners. Most started with nothing and built reputable and successful companies. They sacrificed family time, worked long hours, and went into debt to fund their companies. They deserve every penny they earn.
February 14th, 2010 at 11:30 am
RW, lets not mix the apples with the oranges here. New Jersey, like New York and other states, allows for deductions much like the Federal returns do. Other states have much lower rates but tax you on your gross wages with no deductions so it’s difficult to determine which states have the highest effective tax rates. It’s the manipulation through the various deducutions that generates forums like this.
Once again, some seem to be hung up on the percentages instead of the Constitutionality of the Federal Income tax.
States and local municipalities are required to operate on a balanced budget, so they either cut spending or raise revenues, while our Federal Government can spend as much as it wants to borrow and The Fed wants to print.
It would be great if our gasoline taxes (Federal and State) covered the cost of our roadways, our local school taxes covered the cost of education, etc and States were allowed to create the kind of economic environment it wanted to without the Federal Government imposing unfunded mandates. Nothing novel there just something that gets run up the flag pole every now and then for political purposes but somehow can never be committed to for the long term.
February 14th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Here’s a primer for those that don’t know how the tax system works.
Let’s say I’m single, and my AGI is $85,000. Here’s what I would actually pay.
Dollars $1 to $8375 x 10% = $837.50 due.
Dollars $8376 to $34,000 ($25,624 x 15%) = $3,843.60 (Total paid so far: $4681.10)
Dollars $34,001 to $82,400 ($48,399 x 25%) = $12,099.75 (Total paid so far: $16,780.85)
Dollars $82,401 to $85,000 ($2,600 x 28%) = $728 (Total Taxes Owed: $17,508.85)
Just because I’m in the 28% tax bracket, DOESN’T mean I pay 28% tax on ALL of my income.
If that were true, I’d be paying $23,800 instead of $17,508.85, for a $6,291.15 difference.
This doesn’t include some items to make the calculation easy.
If you know this, great. I rarely find people that do.
Here’s a thought for those that think they pay too much… Earn less. If you don’t make that extra dollar then the government can’t get its 28% out of you. Of course, you’ll lose on that other 72% (minus additional taxes), but you have to stand for something right?
February 14th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Wow! The opinions, the knowledge, and the controversy contained in this blog! Unfortunately I can’t take the time right now to read EVERY post, but from what I’ve read there are some extremely well informed participants and some who could benefit from a little research. I, admittedly, wouldn’t feel comfortable arguing with some of these points without doing some research. However, I do feel comfortable stating that we live in the BEST country in the entire world regardless of the economic situation we are now in. I believe that EVERYONE who lives here should do their part to support the government programs that are necessary to keep our country free, safe and promote the educational and capitalistic opportunities our forefathers intended.
Since the primary focus of this blog is (supposed to be) taxes, I put out a dare to EVERYONE who has posted or reads these posts in the future – take the current situation that YOU are in financially right now. Go to http://www.fairtax.org and see what this ‘FAIR TAX’ is REALLY all about. Look at it from your situation, from your parents/kids situations. Find out where within this proposal it would be bad for YOU. Josh, Dan, Cogipro, Marci, Russ, those who care enough to be sure they have their facts straight about the government’s current situation – work it out – would it provide the ‘fix’ for our country’s financial future?
It seems that everytime you hear someone make a suggestion on how to ‘fix’ the tax problem, or ‘fix’ the budget problem, it’s good for some and bad for others. (Helps the low-income but penalizes the high-income; good for the employed, but hurts the fixed income Seniors/disabled; fair to the consumer, but bad for businesses; etc.) These things can be debated from now until the end of time – but it won’t do anyone any good until enough people agree we need to do something SOON.
Early on, ‘oldbird’ put this information in as posts, and I feel they’re worth re-mentioning…
Dec. 2, 2009:
“With all this angst about taxing, I’m surprised no one has mentioned the FAIRTAX.
step 1 – repeal the 16th amendment
step 2 – eliminate the IRS
step 3 – pay every wage earner 23% of the Federal poverty level
step 4 – eliminate all payroll, corporate and Social Security taxes
step 5 – institute a 23% sales tax on all new products sold in the US.
details @ FAIRTAX.ORG”
Dec. 9, 2009:
“Two more good reasons for the FairTax!
The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 296) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.
The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.
The FairTax:
Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Allows American products to compete fairly
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Abolishes the IRS”
For those concerned about the corporations and jobs going overseas….check the part about “Allows American products to compete fairly”
For those concerned about the so-called ‘rich’ finding the loopholes….check the part about “closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation”.
Everyone – how much do you spend each year to have someone ‘knowledgable’ about the tax code prepare your taxes? What guarantee do they provide that they KNOW the tax code and don’t just use a computer program designed by someone who also is supposed to be knowledgeable?
Sure, a 23% sales tax sounds like a lot – but think about it from a ‘gross pay’ situation rather than your current ‘take home’ pay. And, in reality YOU decide how much tax you’re going to pay by the choices you make in your purchases. If you REALLY can’t live in a ‘used’ house – you MUST have a new one – then it’s YOUR choice to pay the taxes – not the government’s! And it doesn’t remove that option from someone with a lower income, it just means that you have to choose what’s important to you.
Oh, and the one that cures my pet-peeve: ‘Pay every wage-earner 23% of the poverty level’. There really is more to this than is stated – look it up. This is the part that prevents a negative impact on Social Security/Disabled persons on a fixed income and yet makes it ‘fair’ to low and high income earners across the board. Since it requires a Social Security number to receive this payment for offset of necessities, it means that if you are here without the proper paperwork, you get to pay taxes for necessities, but you don’t get the offset.
As I stated in the beginning, I am admittedly someone who could benefit from doing more research, so don’t just take my word for this, BUT – don’t condemn my opinion until you’ve done the research to properly argue it!!!!
And if you can’t offer a better plan, don’t vote against it when it finally reaches the ballot!!! http://WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG
February 15th, 2010 at 2:34 am
KenC, you should have worked as hard trying to read a book as opposed to being a soldier and probably another uneducated blue collar worker. Thanks for your service, but you helped support a country run by the highest bidder whose sole intention is to take the most money possible without having to give out very much.America stopped being the land of opportunity and turned into a national casino the day greedy old white men got the upper hand. Pay employees what they are truly worth and taxes won’t be such a big deal, unless of course you’re a greedy old white man as well.
February 15th, 2010 at 9:46 am
Way to go, Joe. But it’s not even as bad as you illustrate. As a single tax payer you would get a $3,650 personal exemption and $5,700 as a standard deduction (provided you don’t own a home and would most likely use itemized deductions) thereby lowering your taxable income to $75,650 and not hitting the 28% tax bracket.
To MiddleClassSingleMom – Fair tax sounds good on the surface but in some aspects is contrary to the Constitution. I’m all for a consumption tax but other provisions of the Fair Tax seem problematic to me, constitutionally. I will look into it deeper. I do get a kick out having a picture of Charlie Rangel and the subject of taxes on the Fair Tax site. There’s an oxymoron somewhere in that scenario.
February 15th, 2010 at 9:49 am
Republicans Are Greedy…ah, another social elitist who is the typical elitist asshole that makes assumption about people without having a clue. Not only can I read, I have a BS in Journalism from the William Allen White School of Journalism, University of Kansas. Taxes are a big deal and the highest bidder is the US Government and its elected official who constantly and consistently betray the people who elected them. America, while not the land of opportunity it once was, thanks to all the tear jerker laws and class warfare it has allowed to develop. The special interest groups are those that take and never give back….talk about old greedy white men all you want…I give you Jesse Jackson, AL Sharpton, Barney Franks, Barry ABM and the game who put the greedy old white men to shame when it comes to false promises, creating class warfare, continued poverty and absolute personal greed at the expense of those they proclaim to support.
I find peace in helping others and for you to belittle my service to my country (that has left me extremely handicapped) by defining it the way you want to for your own agenda is unconsceinable…take you phony thanks and shove. Step up…serve. Give something back before you run off with your diarrhea of the mouth!
February 15th, 2010 at 10:39 am
Thank you MiddleClassSingleMom! ! We’re supposed to be talking tax brackets not personal behavior. We have to fund our government – what’s the fairest way.
BTW- Fair means EVERYONE is treated the same.
Here’s the latest point from the FairTax site-
“More than a billion dollars a year is spent lobbying the tax code. Washington lobbyists are so successful as tax lobbyists that the hallway outside the House Ways and Means Committee room is called, “Gucci Gulch” because of the expensive shoes typically worn there. Tax committee staff and retired or defeated members can see six and seven figure “signing bonuses” when they move from Capitol Hill to a “K St” tax lobby firm. The FairTax ends this corruption by closing all the loopholes.”
Read the FAQ’s on the FairTax site to understand how it’s designed.
February 15th, 2010 at 10:49 am
To Russ – What do you find constitutionally problematic about the FairTax?
February 15th, 2010 at 10:52 am
KenC
I’m sorry you had to read, much less respond to, what that imbecile wrote. Unfortunately, about a quarter of this country thinks along the same line as he does. Just makes it that much tougher for people like us to pull this country back from the brink.
But it can be done. We just need to stand up and make our voices heard.
February 15th, 2010 at 11:29 am
Josh..thank you. And as to Fair Tax…the only fair tax is a tax that is levied on everybody equally (none of this “fair share” BS where one is charged by what they can afford). The only fair tax is one that is charged at an = % so that everybody knows what it’s like to pay taxes. get rid of payroll deductions, turn Social Security back into what it was supposed to be at conception and limit the Federal Government’s right to spend to national security, sealing our borders and meaningful interstate business, help for those who truly need it (ie: the lame not the lazy – slavery ended over 225 years ago). The rest is up to individual states…that way, if you don’t like the way the state governs things and/or spends you money and can’t change it, you can at least move to a different state without leaving the country. Illegal means illegal…not undocumented. The USA was built on assimilation…not false hyphenated cultural identification and separation.
February 15th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Step up and serve? Why? So I can come back practically worthless too? There’s no reason to serve. I dont know how you can compare Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in terms of being greedy to any of the numerous corporations that pay American workers cruddy wages and in other cases take their labor overseas. Journalism? Thats your education? You got a degree in writing, something everyone can do and only literature snobs see it having any value. You are proving to be one of the sheep. You do what you’re told, support the system, and continue to take the scraps that the fat cats leave you behind. The rich have no right to complain about taxes. The rich pay taxes and cant afford the higher end Porsche, the poor pay taxes and can’t afford the higher end bologna. I’m not a socialist, I’m fair. If we were stuck on a desert island and there were cretin who refused to share their overwhelming abundance of food and water, you had better believe someone is getting lumped up. The war that most Americans call day to day life is no different from that situation.
February 15th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
OB – There’s a few areas that would have to be hashed out in greater detail but first let me state emphatically that I am all for repealing the 16th Amendment and getting rid of the IRS. And while we’re at it support HR 1207 and get The Fed on the endangered species list as well. Although the are a few here who would shed many a tear for the end of corporate welfare and bailouts.
I do believe the Constitution allows for the taxation of profit in an enterprise so doing away with corporate income taxes goes a bit too far in my opinion. I can’t think of a better way to fund our military (especially if we’re going to continue to have bases all around the globe) than to have the multinationals help in the cost. And, while we’re at it, those serving in the military would be in line for a HUGE raise. Something that would make the AIG and TARP expenditures look like a girl scout cookie sale.
As for uniformity and proportionate I’m not sure how the Fair Tax would address those areas. As I said before I will look into it further but the Fair Tax is certainly a far cry better system than what we have now.
I also don’t believe the Federal Government should be collecting anything just to distribute back to the states. That is totally inefficient and not what our Founding Fathers wanted in a Federal Government. I believe they wanted less involvement except in true national issues such as defense.
Any transition will to a new system will be painful. Just as I believe we are in for more pain with our current system. If we are going for change, lets take the time to find a system that aligns us closer to the Constitution. Fairness is a worthy objective but in a country of over 300 million people it would be a major challenge to get a consensus on what is fair.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Republicans Are Greedy..so what is your degree in asshole? You don’t like it here – move! I also have an education in life, in warfare, in business and in being crippled…you come across as an unaccomplished malcontent who has never accomplished anything other than acute whining and who has never done anything for himself preferring to live off of government handout and entitlements…FO scumbag!
Of course you can’t agree about Jackson, Sharpton, etc. who threaten people and corporations…no let’s call it what it is…blackmail…to keep from calling a boycott using the victim/racecard BS.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
I think we would all be better served if we did away with the name calling and hate. Another worthy objective to say the least. And easier said than done. I would ask that everyone avoid the temptation to lower themselves to the least common denominator here.
Isn’t there a street corner some of you can rant on?
February 15th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
to Russ- I know you don’t REALLY think corporations pay income tax. That’s a cost of doing business and is passed on to you and me. My problem with any type income tax is that the politicians will play games with ’special’ corporations getting ’special’ rates.
Fair means the same treatment for everyone.
Experts say the 23% will cover all the existing entitlements and services; including the military.
If the Washington crazies spend more than they get – - Their only option to raise more money is to increase the percentage that ALL of us pay. They can’t hide it as they do now. Do you think they’d catch some flack if they tried to do it for an Airport no one uses in Pennsylvania?
February 16th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
I find it interesting that tax discussion always centers around the income tax, with maybe a few people wanting to replace it with a consumption (Fair Tax) or production (value added) tax.
People always want to tax the “rich”. I suppose high income is an OK proxy for “rich”, but its a shame that we can’t figure out a way to tax people based on assets rather than income. I have a lot more sympathy for the doctor who is earning a good income based on sacrifice and hard work than I do for the trust fund guy who doesn’t have earned income to tax anyway.
February 18th, 2010 at 12:56 am
Russ…it’s better with no name calling, but when I deal with this type of malcontent who belittles my service to my country (which has cost me dearly),refers to me in a condescending way as being “blue Collar” without the ability to read (belittle most of our good Americans) who are hard working and intelligent “Blue Collar” workers and then decode to belittle my own personal education…It really doesn’t became name calling. It becomes fact…the guy really is an asshole!
Oddbird…yes corporations realy do get taxed on their profits, and then they pay those profits out in didvidens to their owners (individual investors, mutual funds, union and labor pension funds) and then the dividends get taxed as indivudual or trust income….screw the entitlements (except for those who are truly mentally and physically handicapped)…and pay the soldiers more. Make stringent education, and continuing education, eliminate tenure and pay them 6 figures. The people they teach sre the future and we need to get the future allow from the NEA.
February 18th, 2010 at 9:38 am
OB – Yes, I do know that corporations pay income taxes. And I do know that their effective rate is far less than the average American’s effective tax rate.
When a business sets out to determine the cost of their product or service most will look at every phase of their operation from the corporate overhead of their head office to the cost of electricity and shipping/postage at their place of business. While there is a lot of noise of late about corporate taxes, surcharges, fees, etc. being passed on to the consumer as if it is a new phenomenon, its been around since the beginning of time.
If your point is that taxes only adds to the cost to the consumer so we should eliminate them to lower prices, where does it end? Shall we add 1-2% to the fair tax and pay every companies electric bill? Lower the minimum wage on the basis it will lower operating costs and require businesses to pass along the savings to the consumer?
And please don’t give me any more expert opinions. I’ve heard them for decades. As the old saying goes “Ask 10 economists and you’ll get 12 opinions.”
The frame work of the Fair Tax has merit. But all I ask for is that any changes to the current system bring us closer to the Constitution.
KB – Assets do get taxed when they generate income (interest, dividends, rental income, etc) and when they are sold (capital gains).
I’m with you on the premise. Although tax rates on Trusts are much, much higher than personal income tax brackets.
Here’s one bleeped up reality of our current system. Say you’ve worked the factory line for 30 years and decide to retire at age 62. Collecting SS and other income just isn’t enough for you to live the life you want to live in retirement so you go back to work doing something less stressful and physically taxing than you did before. If you make more than $14,160, you will have to give back $1 of SS for every $2 you are over that. However, if you make $100,000 via interest, dividends or any other income other than wages, you can keep 100% of your SS benefits. When you take into consideration that the wage earner is still contributing to the system and funding the program for ALL participants it makes absolutely no sense. And I wonder who, or what, was Congress trying to help when they made that rule and why haven’t they changed it over all these years?
February 18th, 2010 at 10:11 am
KC – I understand your reasons but in situations like this I think it’s better to ignore than to lower yourself to their level.
When you pick at a scab, it only gets worse and lasts longer. Leave it alone and it eventually goes away.
February 18th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
Scab…now I understand!!! Thanks!
February 18th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
So, maybe we should do away with all of the Federal government wasteful handouts, the ridiculous procedure of taking money and then giving it back to the sates after their huge administrative cost and lower the Tax payers effective rate to that of corporations…Let me ask this, because to me the corporate effective tax rate rate is a mirage, because taxes are paid on the corporations profit at whatever the effective tax rate is combined with the individuals effective tax rate on the distributions from the corporate profit is….what? Corporate owners (shareowners that consist of big and little people alike, pension plans etc) are taxed on the percentage of the profit distributed to them after the corporation is taxed on the profits. Why not eliminate one or the other. Profits on investments and corporations are taxed in so many ways that it is ridiculous.
The bottom line is that the Government produces no income they only spend it…so the only real way you lower taxes is for the government to stop spending it on agenda led “entitlements” that are so far out of the realm of what was intended by the framers that it is unconscionable,
BTW, I know you have heard millions of experts over the years but the ultimate tax level on trusts is not higher it just begins at a much lower level.
February 18th, 2010 at 8:34 pm
For all you morons that think $100,000 is rich, because our liberal tax and spend government says so, let me put it in perspective for you. I make $100,000 a year and I decided to buy my family a $300,000 house (going rate for a middle class house here in New York) and I thought i was safe. Well lets see we have 35% of that out the window to the government now lets take out my mortgage another $36,000. For anyone keeping count that is $71,000 now lets take out the payment for my families ONE car (a modest minivan) $4,000 a year. Now lets take out the house bills, fuel, phone, electric, water, insurance and food another $14,000 a year, that leaves me a grand total of $11,000 a year for clothes, things for the kids, maybe a new TV if it breaks or any one of the household items that break without fail. Maybe just maybe we might be able to squeeze in a small vacation…RICH MY ASS!!!!! I wonder every day why I work so hard to end up with nothing in the end but then I look at my family and I know I just have to do it, maybe the government should see that!!!!!
February 19th, 2010 at 12:40 am
Income tax is a necessary evil. The problem is not so much the income tax rather how the collected funds are spent. I suggest drastically reducing government spending. For those of you complaining about the rich and corporations tax brackets, you should realize that many of the rich create and provide the jobs so that poor and Middle America can earn a living and pay the taxes. These people should be rewarded for their financial intelligence / discipline and encouraged to conduct business within the US. Maybe fewer companies would not choose or be forced to outsource jobs to other countries that could employ Americans. As for the stimulus package it has only prolonged the agony of our already struggling economy I think they misjudged the ROI. I would also venture to say that many of the folks making negative comments towards the rich have made irresponsible financial decisions living outside their means and relying on credit cards to make up the difference. (Excluding the gent with 3 jobs I hear you) If you have never taken any risk in your financial life or owned a business then you have no idea of the costs or personal financial responsibility involved to become rich. There are countless licensing fees and taxes paid to the government in all businesses, not to mention employer portion of payroll taxes such as FICA and contributions to retirement funds, what about insurances? And we forget about the legal fees for the terminated disgruntled employee who wasn’t doing his job. If you have experienced these situations, you might have a different opinion. I agree that the income tax should be fair but the answer is not to rob the rich and pay the poor. First order of business our government needs to drastically cut spending not raise taxes…Q: What does the average American do when she cannot afford something? A: She uses a credit card. (Stimulus) then the credit card reaches the maximum limit. Q: What happens next? A: years of interest payments and more debt. Q: Then what? A: recession and possibly bankruptcy. Hopefully the lesson is learned no more credit he will do without the new TV, cable or his cell phone. It is time for the government to do without. I am sure that a committee of people in each department of the government with far more intelligence than I could devise a list of items that it could eliminate in these trying times with little impact to performance. Who knows possibly over the next 2 or 3 years they could pay off some of the stimulus money we borrowed. What was it again about 800B?
February 19th, 2010 at 8:42 am
They need to do away with the Earned Income Credit. No person should be able to get back more than they paid in. You want more money work more. The people in the higher brackets earned the pay and everyone has the same chances it just depends on what you choose to do with the opportunity. Actually, low income class has better chance. Their kids get free medical, prescriptions, pre-school, free lunch at school, free books and tuition, free college (via pell grants etc), assistance with food, clothing, electric, gas and the list goes on. While I make too much, then my kids have to work there way through college or I have to figure out how to pay for it…if I add in the freebies I don’t get I’m making less than the poverty level and still getting stuck paying for the “low income people”. Not a fair and balanced system. I worked my way through college (no freebies)…qualified for some freebies with our oldest child but kept at it an now make too much to receive any “freebies” so now our other kids don’t get headstart unless we pay for it (can’t afford to do that) therefore they aren’t getting that early education that would be available had I have just stayed in the same tax bracket….
I am disgusted that the hard working people are paying for all the goodies of the low income while my kids do without. If you make 12,000, how on earth do they justify getting a refund of 6-8 thousand at the end of the year….I personally would rather the government stop allocating my hard earned funds to make themselves look good. I earned it and would like to decide how I spend it.
February 19th, 2010 at 12:38 pm
Andria,
In my view ALL kids should get free medical, prescriptions, school books and education on the cause and remedy for obesity. But, that would lead to Health Reform and increased knowledge. Never happen.
February 19th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
BTW KC – The Trust tax rate starts at 15% up to the first $2,300. Individual (Single) rates start at 10% up to the first $8,375. You have to have over $171,850 in taxable income as an individual to hit the 33% bracket versus $8,200 to hit 33% as a Trust. No fuzzy math or voodoo economics there that’s just a higher rate to me. As for Corporate rates, they are dramatically less when you can deduct real and intangible expenses. That’s how the Gov buys votes. Takes your money then gives perceived benefits through deductions. Heck of a game.
FI – I believe our number 1 problem is our current system runs on debt. YOU have no money to spend, YOUR employer has no money to pay you, and no one can buy or consume ANYTHING until the US Government issues an IOU (US Treasury Bill, Note or Bond) to The Federal Reserve Bank and The Fed prints up the money. Then our elected officials can circulate it as they see fit, occasionally under the guise of “taxpayer dollars.” Sounds to me like you’re working with “conventional wisdom” when you say “income taxes is a necessary evil.” You’ve been brainwashed my friend into a scary mindset. Income taxes as currently manipulated on the American people ARE definitely evil but by no way under the Constitution are they necessary. How did this country get by before the IRS?
February 20th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
Oldbird wrote: “In my view ALL kids should get free medical, prescriptions, school books and education on the cause and remedy for obesity.”
Wow. That’s very noble of you to offer that to all kids. It’s a shame everyone doesn’t have the means to reach into their own pocket and spend so selflessly on the well being of others.
Oh, wait. You probably mean the government should bring out the guns, take other people’s money by force, and use it to pay for freebies for “all kids” even though their parents should be responsible for them since they brought them into the world.
So, which is it. Are you a selfless philanthropist, or a Statist-Progressive-Looter?
February 20th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
As one who has been in the 25% bracket for many years it seems that 10% more federal tax is not bad for tripling my income, I would be happy to do it. I also love my country and do not mind paying my share for the wonderful benefits I receive as an American citizen.
February 21st, 2010 at 1:55 pm
@kimberly47: I’m glad you don’t mind paying more taxes to fund politicians in their vote-buying schemes. I’m sure they will take as big a check as you want to write. But don’t confuse your desire to pay more as a right to demand the government pull out the guns and steal more of my hard earned money… money I’ve traded a good portion of my life to acquire.
I love my country too. The strength of our free, capitalist economy has lifted the standard of living for the entire world. I don’t want to see it descend into some socialist, cradle-to-grave nanny state like we see in much of Europe. Look at the current situation in Greece were half of the population works for the government providing “wonderful benefits”.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:05 pm
TimT- If you check any of my earlier posts you will see that I am adamantly against forced (i.e. income) taxes.
What I am for is that ALL citizens (and corporations and States) should be treated EXACTLY the same. That means ALL kids should get free medical, prescriptions, school books and education on the cause and remedy for obesity. That includes yours, mine the $5000 a year single mom’s and the $5,000,000 a year earner’s! If the government chooses to subsidize something it must do it for everyone equally, not just for ’special cases’. If I choose to subsidize someone I can, with my own money, choose whomever I want to receive it.
This country was born over taxes and the founders went to great lengths to ensure that no one was forced to pay taxes. In our society, if you want to feed and cloth your family you must work and earn income. On which, you MUST pay taxes. That is a forced tax.
So – in response to your question “Are you a selfless philanthropist, or a Statist-Progressive-Looter”, I am neither. I am a citizen who believes the Federal government is only allowed to do the things specified in the Constitution and that the 16th Amendment should be repealed.
February 21st, 2010 at 8:38 pm
Clueless or mindless? You decide.
February 21st, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Oldbird: I admit I haven’t seen your earlier posts. The thread is huge, so I haven’t read everything.
If you mean *if* anyone gets a perk, then all should get it, then I agree with you. If I misunderstood your original post, I apologize. But I’d rather no one get perks from the government. There are a lot of problems in the world and the purpose of government is to solve only a handful of them.
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:50 pm
USA is a great place for those that are willing to work hard, work smart and be entrepreneurial. I came to this great countries with nothing but the clothes on my back and two suitcases mostly full of books. And yes, I came here with a bachelors degree, and with a purpose to get higher education here. There are plenty of scholarship, assistantship and work options if you want to get your Masters degree or a pHD degree. And thank God and thank America, I was awarded all of those and ended up getting a Master’s education at no cost to my parents back home.
Fast forward 20 years… after working for a few years… and starting a business of my own, by bootstrapping myself, through the money I saved from the 3 jobs that I did during my initial career, I am fairly wealthy and comfortable in life.
My success is very modest compared to the billionaires this country has produced… but nevertheless my success is significantly higher than most average Americans.
I write this.. not to gloat of my success.. but to impress upon my fellow Americans, that America remains a great place for those that are willing to work hard, work smart and be entrepreneurial. No matter who you are, and no matter what your background, there must be something you can do to reach into yourself and lift yourself up to levels of success that you dream of. Have faith in yourself, have faith in your country and go after your goals with a single minded mission.
If a first generation immigrant from India, who did not know much about American culture and environment can be successful here, so can you.
Wish you the very best of luck… and may God Bless You and God Bless America.
P.S:-
Overtaxing the rich to give handouts to the poor is not a solution for our problems. The solution lies in just extending a temporary helping hand to the poor, and motivating them to work hard and become rich themselves.
February 24th, 2010 at 11:36 am
We relocated to the east coast for a career change. Both my wife and I both sought better and higher paying jobs so we left the Midwest for the East Coast. Well, that also pushed us into the 28% tax bracket, yet our quality of life has actually decreased because of how expensive housing is, how much it cost to commute, park etc. I can’t wait to move back to a large midwestern metro area and cut our income by 40% and get back into a lower tax bracket and back into a nice home. Making 150-200kk on the east or west coast is like making 50k in the midwest. Far from “rich”. Get me out of here.
February 24th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
TimT –
“IF” is indeed the keyword.
Russ –
Can you see the value of every child receiving adequate medical care? If Government pays for one of them to receive it, why shouldn’t all of them receive it?
Can you see the value of every child receiving an education? If the Government pays for one of them to receive it – whoops! they DO pay for all of them to receive it, I must be mindless.
February 25th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Sticking it to the big companies only means the additional costs will eventually be passed on to the consumer (duh!) rather than reducing the dividends and interest paid to the stockholders. And if you happen to have a 401(k) plan or an IRA or own any mutual fund shares, YOU are one of those stockholders. And you do want to make money on your investments, don’t you?
Sticking it to the “rich” will eventually result in lower consumption, which means less demand, which means fewer jobs. Look at the big picture, not just “that rich SOB is buying a bigger boat”. How many people make a living because that SOB is buying that boat? Think “trickle down”.
The term “rich” is referring to a smaller and smaller amount these days.
February 26th, 2010 at 11:27 am
Oldbird – Just because my comment followed yours does not mean it was directed at you. If appropriate, I typically address the person I am referring to by using their name as I am doing here.
My comment was meant to be thought provoking, with a touch of cynicism, sarcasm and, hopefully, a dash of humor.
ALL of us, at one time or another, have offered an opinion on something we know little about or made a comment without thinking it through.
mimi2 – Yes, I do want to make money on my investments. Can you tell me where I, or anyone else, can make some now or where you’ve made money in the past 10 years?
February 26th, 2010 at 11:28 am
Kimberly47…why wait until you are taxed that extra 10%…just send it in now and tell them to give it to someone too lazy to do an honest day’s work.
I can only see the value in every child receiving what the parents of the child who knowingly brought them into the world can give them. Unless the child is parentless or the child ad/or parents are mentally handicapped to the point where they are absolutely unable to care for themselves, the government should provide nothing.
We do not need income taxes to fund a government to do the things that they are truly responsible for….all of the extra goodies are simply vote buying gimmicks. How did the Federal Government (and State Governments, too, for that matter) survive the 1st 150 years without taxes? Because they did not meddle in social engineering and vote buying with public funds!
February 26th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
Russ – point taken. peace?
February 26th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
You 10%/15% crybabies are delusional. You cry about how the rich don’t pay enough taxes well her are some numbers for you broken down to yearly taxes per bracket married filing jointly….
10%—$1,675
15%—$10,200
25%—$34,325
28%—$58,590
33%—$123,304
35%—$130,795
Notice 15% crybabies I pay (most likely) more in taxes than you even make working. SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH YOUR CRYING ALREADY.
February 27th, 2010 at 10:25 am
Federal income taxes are only part of the story here, and people don’t even realize it. In addition, you (yes YOU, individually) are paying:
-Corporate taxes (Yes YOU pay for these, as individuals)
-Social Security tax (if you’re 25 like me, you’ll never see it again)
-Your company’s “contribution” to SS
-Medicare tax
-State taxes
-Local taxes
-Sales taxes
-Import taxes
and the list goes on. The government has become VERY clever about ways to tax us without us ever seeing it. For example, I couldn’t deduct a lot of the things this year that I could last year. So I paid more taxes. They raised taxes but didn’t raise the rate. It’s this sort of thing we have to be sensitive to, not just these percentage numbers.
February 27th, 2010 at 10:45 am
WCAWLS…Thank you…and lets not forget that the “rich” do not get to deduct “everything. They are rarely at a point where they can deduct health care and after their first $100k in gross income their deductions are decreased by an increasing amount.
Here is the bottom line…no one is entitled to anything except equal opportunity, and “fair share” should the same percentage across the board. As a matter of fact, basically, ONLY THE RICH PAY TAXES.
39% of all Federal Income taxes are paid by the top 1% of the wage earners. 86% of all Federal Income taxes are paid by 25% of the wage earners. The top 50% of wage earners pay 97% of all Federal Income taxes. So the whining other 50% of all eligible wage earner pay ONLY 3% of the total income tax burden and many get money from the government as an “entitlement” for sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing other than whining! (Statistical source: data from the latest tax year released by the IRS)
February 27th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
oldbird – Absolutely peace, never a need to ask the question. I try not to let someone’s passion for their beliefs get miss-interpreted into a personal assault. Besides, I’d like to think my skin is a little thicker than that.
February 27th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Stop complaining about companys not paying enough taxes. Companys don’t pay taxes! The people who buy their products do. That’s you and me. Companys must make a profit or investors (you and me) will not give them the capital (money) that they need to make the product that makes the profit. So they must pass on the tax as they do all expenses or they go out of business. When passed on expenses increase to the point that makes the product unaffordable we stop buying their products or they reduce profits to pass on to investors. The end result is the same investors go away and the companies go out of business. That is why they must pass on all expenses. You can’t limit profits either to force them to eat the tax. Profits must be proportional to the risk. I won’t loan/invest any amount of money in a more risky venture if I won’t potentially make more money (profit). Otherwise I would stick with the less risky venture. When the government increases taxes on corporations they are just adding a hidden tax on us. Hidden taxes are the worst kind. We think were sticking it to the other guy when it is really us.
February 27th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
OldMann…let me try to put it another way. Most companies are not companies, they are people ( some individual, some thru mutual funds, some thru retirement plans) who own something (a “company”) that makes things or provides a service or both. These individuals expect a return on their “ownership”. Their company makes a product or provides a service and hopefully makes a profit on what they do. Out of this profit, they must pay taxes on the (entire) profit. What is left after taxes is distributed to the owners (some is reinvested in the company) and then the owners have to also pay personal income tax on money that has already been taxed at the corporate level…that, my friends, is what we call double taxation. It is the government asking you to bend over and then when you start to stand up they say..oops, I’m not done yet!
If you people that don’t pay taxes and live off of welfare and earned income credits would just shut the f*** up and stop demanding your “entitlements”, the economy just might start moving again…undortunately, we have a president that does not understand how to run the drive-thru window at Burger King and has never held a job in his life…so I doubt that anything will happen until he has his memoirs ghost written for him.
February 27th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
WhiningLiberals… – You sure you want to go after EVERYONE in the 10% and 15% tax brackets? Your life might be dramatically different with no one to mow your lawn, deliver your fast food or serve your meals at a restaurant. Not to mention if you ever have to go to a hospital (other than the doctor).
February 28th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
I’m in agreement with KenC’s last comment!!! I’d like to add a few comments! I’m 23 years old. I have put myself through college. I have 100k+ of debt and will be paying my loans myself. Yet still… I CHOSE to go to college. I CHOSE to work my ass off for a better life. I am currently CHOOSING to keep my credit intact and to work hard for little money now despite having next to nothing to my name. I am CHOOSING to learn as much as possible and make myself better than the next candidate! However, for some reason when and if the day comes that I’m making a good income there will still be people who sit on there ass or aren’t motivated to work! They won’t LEARN and acquire new skills and they expect me (the government) to pay for there mistakes. They want this grant and that handout. They’ll spend and spend, own a cell phone and drive a late model car and claim they have no money for health insurance. So then I (the government) pay for it. That’s just one example. I’m broke as hell and expect nothing. I put myself in the position I’m in and will work to get myself out. If you make good money GREAT.. You worked for it… KEEP IT! Yes, I agree with a graduated tax scale to a point. Taxing the wealthy at 40+ percent (what we’ll soon see) is absurd! I’m all about helping people in need. But… If you’re just lazy or foolish enough to waste the money you do have then you’re starving for a reason. Where are the values, determination, and work ethic this country used to thrive on? You know, the mentality that put us on top in the first place! We need to stop forcing people who’ve worked there way to the top to hand out money to the so called “less fortunate” who usually tend to be more opinionated than motivated or informed!
March 1st, 2010 at 11:06 am
RecentGrad…well said and thank you for your contibution to society. It is great when a young person has values like yours…and thank your parents too. Regardless of anything else, they instilled in you the values of personal responsibility and accountability…with that, and your guaranteed right to equal OPPORTUNITY…you will succeed!
March 1st, 2010 at 1:34 pm
You know, I normally wirte-off everyone under the age of 30 as just some moronic blob of lemings that automatically pulls the lever for the Dem’s just so that they can tell all the other lemmings how caring, compassionate and enlightened they are.
But RecentGrad givems me a slight glimmer of hope for the future of this country…..
March 1st, 2010 at 9:20 pm
It does not take long to figure out why this country is headed down the toilet. The politicians have succeeded in cementing the “entitled to everything” mentality. Work means nothing anymore. Power to the people!!! What freaking idiots!
March 2nd, 2010 at 5:05 pm
I have 120k+ in student loans and I am living in a shack to try and pay them off with my 60k/year job. I’m so sick of being taxed for trying to improve my life with education. When in the hell are we going to get a flat tax? Let’s increase consumption tax and reduce income tax.
March 3rd, 2010 at 2:35 pm
What incentive is there for anyone to make a good living now? Those of us who have busted our butts and incurred huge debt to get educated and get ahead are no longer willing to burn the midnight oil to subsidize a bunch of welfare bums.
We’ve decided to live simply this year and not make one dime over the 15% bracket. Why? Because we are sick of subsidizing the unproductive. After we have scrimped and saved to live responsibly, we are dismayed that our “Robin Hood” President keeps throwing our hard-earned money away on bailouts for banks and slackers. So don’t be surprised when millions of “the rich” decide to join the ranks of the rewarded slackers. Let’s see happens when Atlas finally shrugs….
March 3rd, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Those of you with short memories, remember it was not Obama but The Last President “Bush” that lowered the tax rates for his cronies. He and is Republican Congress spent all the extra money saved by President Clinton for the tax breaks and then continued the spending with the unnecessary war with Irag, Remember the” weapons of mass distruction”..thus putting this Country into the awful debt we have today. Mr. Obama inherited this financiiel mess and we had better get rid of the congress. I mean all the Republicans and Democrats that have been in Congress much too long. This all started back with Mr. Regan’s economic stratagy ” supply side” and has never changed..It didn’t work then and still doesn’t. We need people in the Congress with new ideas..the old ones don’t work. Maybe they can talk away all the deductions on our income taxes and make it 5% across the board for everyone. Anyone know how much revenue that would give the Government. Might be more, who knows, the Really rich would have nothing to take off as expenses..
March 3rd, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Yep…and I wonder how they are going to pay for all the “entitlements” for all these lazy bums after they run out of “our” money?
March 3rd, 2010 at 8:09 pm
Came home from work today and read all of these postings. I’m a part-owner of a small business with 9 employees. We’re still trying to sell a small business condo that we left in 2007 for a larger facility that we built. I’ve always paid my bills on time, even when I graduated from college in 1975 and made $11,500. Bought a house in 1978 with 20% down and a mortgage of $54,000 (my father agreed to co-sign), money that I accumulated working P/T jobs starting at the age of 15. I drove a 1967 Mustang that I had bought used in 1971. Drove it until 1977 and upgraded to a 1973 AMC Hornet. Drove that until it died in 1982. Bought my first new car and drove it until in died in 1991. My pay had increase over this time to $55,000! Never been do Disneyworld, Europe or even to anyplace other than a neighboring state for a vacation. Most of the time never went anywhere for a vacation other than to visit (and stay) with family. Acquiring “things” wasn’t in my genes nor had it been in my family’s. My father’s parents immigrated from Europe just before WWI. They worked in the railyard and as a hotel maid, until both of them retired. My father had 2-yrs of college and at the end of his worklife was making $28,000 (I was making $35,000 when he retired), raised a family of 4, owned his home, & amassed about $250,000 in investments. My parents’ never had a credit card until they were in their 50’s, always paying cash for everything. I didn’t have a credit card until I was 25, and only got one in order to rent a moving van that I needed. I’ve never been late on my credit payments, even while surviving layoffs in 1981 and 1998. Started a small business with friends in 1991 as a precaution to reaching late middle-age and being vulnerable to “losing” my job. Worked 12-hour days for 6 months straight when taking over our small business in 2000. Have had about 20 days of vacation till now, mostly a day or two at a time (20 days in 10 years, and this includes any time that I needed to recuperate from having my prostate removed in 2004), Now the bank will only do 1 year loans on our business condo because it’s an “investment property”. Oh, by the way for all of you who got to purchase a home with less than 20% down, I have had to put 25% down on all business real estate in order to secure a loan. So, for someone that has played by the rules all of his life and not purchased all of the toys, gone to fancy restaurants on regular basis or indulged in expensive vacations, I get the privilege of having to “save” those people who “chose” who chose to do the opposite, as well as those in government that enabled and continue to enable these individuals. Oh, by the way, I know quite a few people that are my age who never have been to Disneyland and some whose children never went, either. I will retire a millionaire based on my IRA and 401K contributions from 1976 thru 1989. I will add a million or two based on by taking my work and saving ethics to successfully grow a small business that has provided stable jobs (with pay increases and bonuses), even in this economy. What’s the purpose of this diary? Living in the United States affords everyone the opportunity to pursue what makes them “happy”. I’m sure that my grandparents did not relish their jobs, but were thankful for their situation. My parents’ were not “happy” with their work situation, but wanted their children to get better educations than they had, which would provide better opportunities. They raised 4 children on a meager budget, but we never wanted for anything that mattered. All 4 children received college educations; nurse, cpa, software analyst and accountant. We are living examples of the American Dream. This dream is still alive for those that choose to invest in themselves and their futures, foregoing the bigger TV, fancier car and everyday indulgences. I also know from my life experiences that “fair” is what you pay to ride the bus.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:33 am
Patti, let’s not forget that the recession that the Bush (I am not a huge GW fan) inherited started in the Clinton “Era”. Let’s not forget that the 9/11 attacks took place because the terrorists believed, due to the inaction of Clinton, that the US was a paper tiger.
I believe that Mr. Forbes was a presidential candidate, and a proponent of the “flat tax” that the figure was a reasonable 17% and still allowed the single deduction of a home mortgage. And that even included the massive ridiculous welfare crap that we pay.
DanM…agree with you, but the problem of letting everybody pursue what makes them happy is the 45%+ that are happy sitting on their asses and whining that the “rich” aren’t paying enough taxes to allow them to not work and live in more luxurious surroundings.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:49 am
1st- $5,000 deduction each person for Trad. IRA
2nd= Sep IRA 18% of net income, make $100,000 in profit, $18,000 is deductible… File a tax extension and you will have several extra months to contribute for 2009 taxes…
Hope this helps I was in the 25% bracket I paid 11.78%
March 4th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Patti-
There was so much wrong in your one short post but I was going to let it slide because I’m getting tired of responding to everyone. But then you took a shot at Reagan…….and I just can’t let that one go.
So “supply-side” economics failed right? Cutting all those taxes just starved the government of needed tax revenue and created huge deficits right? The poor government got less money and rich fat cats pocketed all the profits right? Lord this country is surely doomed…….
So when Reagan cut the marginal tax rates by more than half, what actually did happen to tax revenues to the government? Got cut in half?? NO, IT DOUBLED BY THE END OF HIS PRESIDENCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One more time, when Reagan cut taxes, revenue to the federal government DOUBLED!!!!!!!!!!!!! So we got to keep more of our money, the government got more money, and over 20 Million new jobs were created. The horror!
Maybe that was a fluke? Well when evil George Bush cut taxes in 2001 and 2003 what happened? Balooning deficits caused by evil millionaires taking money from the government and putting it into their piggy banks? No, federal tax receipts when up by 50% from 2003 to 2007. Lower taxes spur investment, which spurs jobs, which spurs income, which spurs Federal Tax Receipts. It’s a simple equation.
The problem has never been lower taxes, it has always been higher spending. Every Congress and President, Republican or Democrat, has caused this problem. Even though Federal Tax Receipts soared after the Reagan and Bush tax cuts, spending when up even more. It’s pathetic and needs to stop, but I dont think it will until its too late. Especially with Patti’s view of economics.
It makes me sad that Patti’s vote cancels out mine….
DanM – I wish we had 50 million more like you
March 4th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
One of the basic premises in the successful operation of any business or even home finances is “zero-based budgeting”. You determine your budget with a justification for every expense that you want funded. You don’t start out by saying that since the budget last year was $10M that it should automatically be 3-5% higher the next. Someone (s) need to question that the dollars are needed where they are wanted. Needs are different than wants. I support trying to help people who have basic needs that are not being met due to no fault of their own. I’m sure that almost all parents don’t look forward to supporting their fully grown children because they have wants that exceed their needs or because they have no ambition to earn it for themselves over their lifetime. We would all feel better about paying for “things” that the US needs rather than wants. Waste in government should not be tolerated by us or the people that we have elected. They have fiduciary responsibilities as the trustees of our constitutional rights and finances.
March 4th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
JOSH…well said and totally accurate.
March 4th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
Patti – Josh has it right… you are wrong in just about every sentence you uttered. You’re either an idiot or a troll. I don’t normally feed the trolls, so I’ll assume the former.
1) George Bush lowered the tax rate for his “cronies” (i.e. the top 50% of wage earners who actually PAY income taxes) Nearly half are moochers who pay no income tax. Some get the Orwellian sounding “Earned Income Tax Credit” which actually makes some moochers’ tax rate negative. I call that welfare.
2) Yes the Republicans spent too much money in the early 2000’s. We have them to thank for Princess Nancy being Speaker of the House now.
3) President Clinton did not give us a surplus. That would be the Republican Congress in the last half of the 90’s. (Spending bills originate in the House, remember.) The Republican congress drug him kicking and screaming to a surplus. He also refinanced much of the national debt with lower short term bonds. Much of the savings was interest servicing the debt. In any case, he was a big liberal until 94. Then he saw the writing on the wall and made a mad dash to the center. Too bad Obama won’t do that.
4) The Iraq War: You Statist-Progressives love to whine about how much the Iraq war cost. Did you know the ENTIRE Iraq war cost less than Obama’s stimulus bill? The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan COMBINED cost less than $1 trillion. And that was over how many years? Obama’s going to beat that in ONE YEAR with a massive deficit.
5) The “weapon’s of mass destruction”. What that has to do with tax rates I haven’t a clue. A typical Statist-Progressive has to work that phrase into any argument somewhere I guess.
6) Mr. Obama inherited the debt: Yes, he inherited a debt from the Republicans AND the Democrat congress that was in power the last two years of Bush’s term (remember the Dems taking over in ‘06)? And then he doubled down. Obama’s deficit for ONE YEAR is nearly as big as Bush’s first entire budget.
7) “we had better get rid of the congress”: Wow, I actually agree with one of your statements.
8) Reagan: Josh pretty much already covered this. Revenue increased dramatically during his term. Spending increased MUCH faster. Yeah, Reagan could have vetoed some of the spending, but he had to let some of it slide to get other things he wanted out of the Democrat controlled congress (remember, he had a Cold War to win… which he did win).
9) “Trickle down economics doesn’t work”: Where the hell were you in the 80’s and 90’s? It worked great. I grew up in a mobile home and my folks lived paycheck to paycheck. Now I’m in the top 15% of income earners. Seems like something tricked down and I’m grateful.
10) A flat tax would raise taxes on the “poor” since they don’t currently pay any taxes. Remember, it’s only the filthy, putrid, awful, stinking rich that you want to suck dry like a parasitic tick.
11) I case you didn’t notice, Reagan’s tax reform eliminated many of the tax breaks the “rich” took advantage of. BUT it lowered the top marginal rates down to a relatively reasonable amount.
March 7th, 2010 at 10:25 am
So Tim, are you loading up your pickup truck with fertilizer and driving it down to your local government building tomorrow?
Trickle down economics does not work. How many times does it have to fail before idiots like you see that having the government make a few top people at the top rich and hoping that a few pennies trickle down on the rest of us is good for society. Of course, you will probably have to look up the word society in the dictionary. Because in your small mind, ME is the only thing that matters.
Trickle down does not work. It destroyed the middle class. The economy collapsed because of the greed of wall street, but it will be slow to come back because Trickle Down Economics destroyed the middle class. An economy can only prosper when it has a strong middle class with money to spend. When all it does is to create a super rich upper class, which Trickle Down Economics, by definition, is designed to do, it is destined for failure.
May I suggest that the problem is not big Gubment vs Small Gubment, which is as far as your small mind will allow you to think. Rather, the problem is who government works for. You prefer a government which works for the wealthy and i controlled by the banks, the insurance companies, the energy companies and the drug companies. I would much prefer a government which works for the people.
March 7th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Wow, Jerry…you are long on name calling and short on knowledge and fact…so let me join in that fun. You appear to be an ignorant horse’s ass. You make broad general statements like “Trickle Down Economics destroyed the middle class” without in supporting detail. Tim on the other hand, supplied several examples of accurate detail.
You may be right in your analysis (I highly doubt it), but you are seemingly illiterate when it comes to presenting your position.
1) How did Trickle Down Economics destroy the middle class?
2) What is a government that work for the people (is it one that give them equal opportunity or one that redistributes wealth)?
3) Are not “Insurance companies, banks, energy companies, drug companies, etc owned by the people (with the small exception of some large privately owned companies)?
4) Whose going to pay for the “gubment” that works for the people…the 50% that pay all the Federal Income taxes or the 50% that are too lazy to get off their ass and make something of themselves while they whine about more entitlement?
Every ‘Gubment” that has worked for the people (let’s call it what it is – Socialism) has failed because it has run out of money and its economy collapsed beyond the point of recovery). They also tend to be run by ruthless, maniacla dictators.
The real problem is “Gubmentmaniacal” does not work, it only takes…with the exception of building and maintaining some infrastructure and a sound national defense, the “Gubment” should not work at all.
Talk about a small mind!
March 7th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
Jerry,
I’ll ignore your childish comment regarding my intelligence. It’s obvious you’re a statist elite who thinks if we only get the right set of looters in power over the all-powerful government, then heaven on earth can be achieved.
Trickle down does work. The government isn’t “making a few top people at the top rich”. In fact, the government taxes the ability to *become* rich.
When a rich person has extra money, what does he do with it? Put it under his mattress? No. He spends it (someone builds his luxury yacht, car, and home… those were not millionaires who built them). Or he invests it which creates capital for new business and jobs.
How many time have you ever been employed by a poor person?
You say Wall Street caused the collapse. Wrong. Artificially low interest rates along with government distortions of the market like the Community Reinvestment Act conspired to get a lot of people into houses they could not afford. This pushed house prices up which created the predictable bubble. And when the bubble burst, everyone was hurt. I was against the bail-outs, BTW. Housing prices still need to go down a long way before reaching their long term trendline.
Let me detail the specifics of how the crash happened: Fannie and Freddie (at the direction of people like Barney Frank) wanted to get “the poor” into houses. So they changed their rules so they would buy up risky loans like no-doc loans and 110% loans. Mortgage brokers knew these crappy loans would be bought by Fannie and Freddie, so they wrote the loans and sold them. (You would say that’s greed. I say that’s just the result of a distorted market.)
You deride me saying it’s “big Gubment vs. Small Gubment” and then say the problem is who the government works for. See, you are a big-government Statist. You think big government is fine as long as it’s working for the “right people”. I submit that if a government is kept small then it doesn’t matter who it’s “working for”. A government that sticks to its proper functions (protecting from external threats, adjudicating disputes, protecting the rights of the people [actual rights, not made-up rights that most Statist-Progressives say people have], and insuring there is a fair, free market [ie, not inherently tilted to any given players]) then there will be little incentive for big evil corporations to pull the strings of government.
BTW, the poor are not poor because the rich take advantage of them or steal their money (they’re poor… they don’t have any money to steal by definition). The rich are not rich because someone gave them their money. No, the rich are rich because they keep doing the things that made them rich. The poor are poor because they keep doing the things that make them poor. (Yes, there are a very small number of people that just have terrible luck). How may poor people live paycheck to paycheck, unable to save for emergencies or investment, but have plenty of money for beer and cigarettes? How many “poor people” have cell phones and cable TV?
I live way below my means. I could afford much more “bling” if I was willing to spend every penny I make and then go into debt. Instead, I save and invest so I can have a more secure future. But Statist-Progressive-Looters such as yourself want to take my carefully saved money and give it to Moochers so they can buy more beer and cigarettes and whine about their predicament in life while they head to the polls to vote for Looters like Obama so they can get even more goodies. Yeah, that system works much better than trickle-down.
March 7th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Ha! We have a winner! Of all that wacko, Leftisit absurd posts we have seen here, I think Jerry’s takes the cake. He is such a caricature of himself. A lot of the moon-bat’s out there at least TRY to throw what they think is a fact in there somewhere to try and make their point. You might see a number, or a % or something that looks like evidence of SOMETHING. But not Jerry.
Jerry just throws out the same old hackneyed phrases that he’s probably read on the Daily Kos. All conservatives are clones of Tim McVeigh. Same old villains – Banks, Energy, Insurance, Drugs. As a side note, I’d love to see what this country would be like without the Banking, Insurance, Energy and Drug companies. Probably a lot of very cold people dying at the age of 45 living under bridges because they couldn’t get a loan to build a house or find a company to build it because they couldn’t get insurance! But that’s another point…
Thank you Jerry for showing your elitist attitude over and over by calling Tim “small minded”. Your argument was extremely compelling about trickle down economics. The data you presented was impressive. I especially like all of the specific historical facts you used. You painted a brilliant picture that is impossible to dispute.
Prediction: Jerry is 26 and lives in his parent’s basement. He went to a small LIberal Arts college where he had a dual major in English Lit and Political Science. He is bitter at “big business” for not valuing that education in the slightest and thus he has no career at all to look forward to unless he gets a hack, government job (which are growing by leaps and bounds). He drives a Prius with no less that 40 Obama/Liberal bumper stickers on it.
How is that for stereotyping?
March 7th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
TimT – So nice of you to throw Pattie a bone and agree with her on one point. When I see your posts with their name calling and inherent venom it makes me wonder if you stomp your feet and hold your breath when you write them. Keep assuming, you wear it well.
Josh was right? He only mentioned four years of W’s eight years in office. Doesn’t that make him only half right? And while revenues did go up (44%) during the years mentioned, it wasn’t until W’s second term that revenues exceeded what he had inherited from the previous administration. Unfortunately spending was never adjusted for the decline in revenues. Even with a Republican Congress. Hard to imagine that a Republican Congress could drag Clinton kicking and screaming to a surplus but didn’t have the balls to drag a Republican President to do the same. I smell hypocrisy.
You keep saying spending bills originate in the House. Currently, they are debating a House version and a Senate version of Health Care Reform. That is clearly a spending bill, so how did one version originate in the Senate if spending bills originate in the House? Also, why do both branches of Congress have Appropriation Committees? (Side Note; Interesting definition for Appropriation – The taking of something that belongs to or is associated with somebody else, especially without permission. THAT might explain why both branches have an Appropriations Committee.)
Clinton changed his stripes while in office so there may be hope for O. Just be careful what you wish for.
We got two wars that are still in progress. How on earth do you know how much they will cost? And in the terms of human life, how much will Obama’s stimulus bill cost?
I guess killing people is okay as long as it doesn’t cost too much. Makes winning the Cold War all the more worthwhile.
“Reagan: Josh pretty much already covered this. Revenue increased dramatically during his term. Spending increased MUCH faster. Yeah, Reagan could have vetoed some of the spending, but he had to let some of it slide to get other things he wanted out of the Democrat controlled congress (remember, he had a Cold War to win… which he did win).”
We beat the Big Red Threat with barely firing a gun. We just had to outspend them. I guess its okay to let the military mooch off the taxpayers. Afterall, our fighting men and women were, and are, compensated so well for putting their life on the line during the Cold War and the current wars.
11) I case you didn’t notice, Reagan’s tax reform eliminated many of the tax breaks the “rich” took advantage of. BUT it lowered the top marginal rates down to a relatively reasonable amount.
Many have stated that the 1993 Tax Act under Clinton was the largest tax increase in America’s history. I believe the Tax Reform Act of 1986 under Reagan was a greater tax increase for the middle class than Clinton’s 1993 bill, because of the elimination of credit card, auto loan interest, changes on mortgage refinancing and other provisions. It also introduced us to passive and non-passive income which impacted the upper middle class and higher, so the reform hit everyone. I also think the Act had a direct cause on the October, 1987 market crash and the subsequent Savings and Loan crisis. The 1986 Act was “re-distribution of wealth” with the Resolution Trust and the liquidation of billions in real estate at pennies on the dollar. Anyone posting here get in on that ride or is currently buying assets from the FDIC? My, how history does repeat itself regardless of party in control of the White House or Congress.
The average American taxpayer was paying 10.4% of their income to Federal Income Taxes before the 1986 Act to 13.2% after. I think the middle class picked up the majority of that tab. I voted for Reagan, the first term. But did not vote for him on his re-election primarily for firing David Stockman. But I do credit Reagan for making me give the Republican Party a closer look. I supported their 1994 campaigns and the subsequent Contract With America. Unfortunately, they couldn’t follow through on it. Made them look just as hypocritical as Democrats.
For many years I didn’t have a problem paying taxes, I just wanted value for my money. But I learned over the years how to play their game and work within the system to keep as much as I could. Then I saw Aaron Russo’s “America: Freedom To Fascism” which compelled me to pick up a book on the Federalist Papers and The Constitution. Opened my eyes to how both parties sell us out.
Both parties spent years re-aligning voting districts. This resulted in the ranting and raving and greater polarity in America, along with the emergence of cable stations like MSNBC and FOX. So they narrowed the playing field and the dialogue. Mostly to keep the peons distracted.
I’m done with my opinions and rants. I only came here to get the projected tax tables to help my clients keep more of their money. All this other noise is becoming too much of a distraction.
I do enjoy the exchange of ideas and opinions, though. Yes, Josh and TimT, that includes you two (minus the name calling from TimT).
I do hope we vote them all out for the next 20 – 30 years.
We also need to get rid of The Fed. No private entity should be allowed to print money and charge interest to the Federal Government for the use of that currency. It’s in the Constitution; Section 8 The Congress shall have the power to coin Money. Shame on the Congress for circumventing their responsibility and shame on the American voters for allowing it to continue.
Previous attempts at a Central Bank were done under 20 years Charters. Representatives had the foresight to subject the previous banks to review and re-approval. That no longer exists. It’s time to get it back. Between The Fed and the Keynesian economic model it pursues there will be more social engineering and the further expansion of the Federal Government. Politics got us into this mess and politics will get us out of it. Start local, get involved, and keep an open mind and the BS to a minimum.
The Fed made $45 Billion and has no competition. Nice business model, no?
Bye all.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/index.cfm
March 8th, 2010 at 11:12 am
On many of your arguments, you make good points…on others you contradict yourself.
One small example…you talk about wars and the cost of lives and then you criticize Reagan for spending his way to victory over the USSR rather than going to war. What is it you want.
You obvuiously have a disdain for the military which protects you…to call our men and women who service “moochers” is an act of cowardice. It’s those big sallaries they collect for putting thier lives on the line that must bug you!
March 8th, 2010 at 11:33 am
Russ –
Come on. Give us a break will you? You are ( I thought) one of the more intelligent and logical posters on this board. Please, don’t make me cross you off that short list.
So are you trying to imply that my statement about lowering taxes causing tax receipts to increase is somehow false? Because the latest example “only worked for half of Bush’s term”? Really? Were you joking? The Bush tax cuts came in 2 phases – 2001 and 2003. With the more significant being in 2003. So 2004-2007 is where you would expect to see the impact. Revenues don’t automatically go up as soon as you pass a law. First you lower taxes, then people invest in businesses, then they hire people, then they pay their taxes. You do get that right? Same thing happened with the Reagan cuts.
My point was to disprove the widely repeated Liberal falsehood that tax cuts cause revenue to the government to decrease which causes deficits. I pretty clearly disproved that. If you want to present some facts that counter that, please do.
One final thing. Enough with the damn “Clinton Surplus” that was squandered. He had a surplus in only his last 2 years. It was almost entirely driven by massive, massive capital gains taxes from the stock market pretty much doubling in those 2 years. And greatly aided by the huge job creation of the Dot Com bubble. Those jobs, and those tax revenues, disappeared overnight when the bubble burst.
Bernie Madoff had a pretty good surplus going for a while too………
My point is that this surplus was not caused by any great fiscal restaint by Clinton or the House Republicans. It was pure fantasy caused by an unsustainable asset bubble of historic proportions. Without major changes, we will NEVER see an annual surplus again, much less any meaningful reduction of the Debt.Unless you want to promise me we can have another Dot Com bubble that will last for 30 or 40 years before popping.
Unlikely…..
March 8th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
I think a major issue is that our tax system (and most systems) does not reward hard work. If there are two people, one who works 40 hours and makes $100,000 and another works 60 hours (3 jobs) and makes $100,000 they both pay the same tax.
March 8th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Russ…I just re-read my comments and they appear a little bit harsh. I tried to edit them, but I can’t figure out how. So, if I may… I apologize for the tone!
March 8th, 2010 at 11:33 pm
Russ:
You mistake passion for anger. Name calling? Really? Do you mean my use of “Statist-Progressive”? Or my implication that Pattie may be an idiot? At least I didn’t assume she was a domestic terrorist as Jerry seemed to be implying about me.
Yes, it wasn’t until W’s second term that revenues exceeded what he inherited from the previous administration. Do you think the reduced revenue may have had anything to do with the recession after the dot-com bubble? Or the further economic problems caused by 9/11?
Yes the Republican Congress dragged Clinton kicking and screaming to a surplus. No they didn’t do it with Bush. I wish they had. If there’s hypocrisy, it’s Republicans forgetting why they were elected and turning into entrenched Statist-Progressives. That’s why they were taken to the woodshed in ‘06.
Yes, spending bills originate in the House. Section I Article 7 of the US Constitution says, “All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.” Now strictly speaking, that means the House originates tax bills, not necessarily spending bills. But Alexander Hamilton wrote in Federalist 66 that “originating money bills” originate in the House. In fact, the House has traditionally interpreted this to mean tax AND spending bills must originate in the house. When the Senate has attempted to originate a spending bill in the past, the House has sent them a “blue slip” that basically told the Senate to go pound sand. Since the House would have to agree to pass a Senate spending bill, and they don’t, the bills wither and die. See this link for more info: http://www.c-span.org/questions/weekly32.asp
As for the cost of the wars, I’m obviously speaking about what they have cost up until now. I have no idea what they will cost in the future. And I don’t have a problem killing people who want to kill us and / or have actively done so.
Yes, we won the Cold War by outspending the Soviets. I think that’s a much better solution than ending it via a nuclear war. I don’t have a problem with military spending. It’s one of the few activities our government does that is actually constitutional. And I would love to divert a little money spent on weapons systems in order to double or triple current military pay rates. Those people deserve a hell of a lot more than we’re giving them. (Actually, that’s not correct: we’re not giving, they earned it.) And I wish the VA was worth a damn.
Yes, the 1986 tax act removed a lot of deductions. But it tended to flatten the tax rates. If you calculate the portion of income that was taxed at 33% and offset it against the lower brackets, then the rich paid a flat 28% tax rate on all their income. Everyone else paid some graduated rate up to 28%. Everyone lost some deductions, but look what the deductions were doing: encouraging people to go into debt. Tax policy shouldn’t do that. People who paid cash were punished by not getting the deduction. Granted, in times since then people have still gotten over their heads in debt… even more so… but that’s largely the result of artificially low interest rates and the current culture of instant gratification.
You say you didn’t vote for Reagan in his second term. Did you vote for Mondale? Do you really think he would have done a better job?
I was ecstatic about the ‘94 congressional takeover. I too wish they had followed through. I wish W. had turned out to actually be a fiscal conservative on something other than tax cuts.
Yes, in a perfect world, I’d get rid of the entire crop of professional politician in Washington and in state governments. But I think there’s as much chance of that happening as of a forty pound gold meteorite falling in my yard. So, I’ll hold my nose and give the Repubs another shot. A vote for a Democrat, even a “blue dog” empowers the Pelosis and Reids and we can’t survive them much longer.
YES, I want to see the Fed done away with. YES, I want to see Keynesian economics die a long deserved death.
Actually, I think we agree on more than we disagree.
March 9th, 2010 at 12:11 am
Josh,
I though some more about our friend Jerry’s comment. He is typical of the new left. His implication is that since I have certain political views, I might be a domestic terrorist. Now what do you do with people who are dangerous to society? (Oops, there’s that word I don’t know the definition to.) You lock them up! Yes, I’m extrapolating, but I bet I’m right.
How many times have we heard leftists try to keep their opposition silent? Reinstatement of the fairness doctrine, perhaps? And they get completely apoplectic about Fox News even though they’ve had ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, and CNN for YEARS. And PBS. And NPR. It seems our freedom loving liberals only want freedom of speech if you’re saying what they agree with.
Now, as for him saying it’s all about “me” and not “society” (there’s that word again), that is also typical of the left. It’s all about “society”, not the individual.
It Takes A Village.
Using a biological metaphor, assume society is a multi-cellular organism. Each person is a cell. Some are skin cells, other are liver cells, etc. Whenever a cell becomes dangerous to the overall organism, such as in a cancerous tumor, it should be removed. In fact, when things are working correctly, the cell should just kill itself via apoptosis. (I had to drive my pickup truck to the lie-berry to look that word up!) Something has to decide what’s best for the organism (society), since the machinery isn’t automatic like in a living being. For the leftist, that something would be government. Marx thought eventually it would be automatic in society as well, once everyone was enlightened and happy. Government would just disappear! LOL!
Well, that works great for cells and multi-celled organisms such as the family dog. But people are not cells. They are complete beings with wants and desires that live best with other complete beings in a symbiotic relationship. The symbiosis works best when each organism takes care of its own well being first.
When I’m happy and productive, I may decide to go buy, say, a car from Fred. Now Fred is happy. Fred goes and buys a new TV from Sam. Everyone working in their own best interest makes everyone better off. Does that mean they’re being selfish? What would happen when Sam was forced to go make TVs, and Fred forced to make cars for the good of society? And the those TVs and cars were confiscated and redistributed to, say, Jerry, who likes to sit on his butt all day and swill beer? Does that make the system more “fair”?
Just my 2 cents worth. 1 cent after tax.
March 11th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Let me get this straight, if I am paying 35% of my income in taxes, that is not enough according to you. First of all, it is not your money, we pay more than our fair share, if you want to support the free loaders, do it on your own. This country is going down the tubes because of people like you. Why don’t you go hang out with the nut jobs in Iran.
Jim Truesdale
Sacramento
March 12th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
I am tired of paying for all of these free-loaders! We need to return to the good old days of Ronald Reagan – when things were fair…. he didn’t let us legitiment working people get pushed around by the welfare people…….. er….what a minute, I need to check something……
Oppss…… forget it…..
During Reagan’s term the tax rates were higher, the deficits were just as high, and there were 3 times as many people on welfare.
On second thought….. let’s go with my first paragraph…… why let the facts get in the way a good right-way outrage…..
March 12th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Oh my God! How do people like Bill Kane exist? Why can’t they just move to Canada? So demoralizing that they cancel out my vote. When did people in this country collectively lose their power of reason?
1) Deficits in the 1980’s averaged $200B and bumped around a range of 2.5% to 6% of GDP. The Deficit in 2009 was 10% of GDP and over a Trillion dollars. Next year will be 11% and close to 1.5Trillion. Yes, why let facts get in the way.
2) I have no idea if there were 3 times as many Welfare people during Reagan’s time. But there probably was. Who stopped that? Newt Gingrich. Ever heard of Welfare Reform of the mid-90’s.
3) Taxes were higher? Please. The Marginal rate may have been, but the effective was lower. 98% never paid more than the 28% bracket. Don’t ever imply that Reagan
supported high taxes. The ground may swallow you up….
March 13th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Wow,
I feel I should not have to pay any taxes from my pay check. On things I purchase yes…Didn’t our forefathers fight the british over this….LOL………Its not a human right to get anything for free….You need to earn it……With the current financial cris’ our home in Florida went from 240k to 99k… I am upside down…..Which is not my fought at all….I ask for a refinace and was just laughed at by all the banks….I have never missed a single payment…I worked since I was 15 years old…I have a BS degree from Towson State University……I figure I would ask for help which was hard for me because I am so use to working for what I earned…….They told me no………..I have no kids, I have all these money which I don’t because of some problems I needed to put on a credit card……….But in my neighborhood I have illegals getting help, renters getting help(yes their section 8) Me go f myself………..I talk to a lawyer how was awesome….He told me to file chapter 13 and walk away………Its not worth me fighting for my dream home…………Now these year I m in a higher bracket thanks obama due to the extra 20 dollars a week in the pay check……I am not a have not its time to move on…Just like these piece of shit government…its time to get the lifers out………And if they don t want to listen to us, vote someone else in….I almost wanted to start a don t pay your owed taxes…Since obamas people don’t have to pay…………Plus Income tax is unconsitional…………Its socialistic, thanks to FDR and woodrow wilson…………Also call your congressman and tell them you work for me not special interest and lobbyist…If you don’t listen to me you will not have a job like the rest of americans…………..
March 15th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
I think the system is messed up when people get more out of taxes then they put in. I have 3 sister who CHOOSE to live under the poverty limits. They have 3 kids each and live off of the government. I had a conversation with one of them last month when she was looking into trying to make some money. When she found out that I pay $400 a month in health insurance she decided it was easier to keep her FREE medicaid than make more money and lose it. Each of these sisters pay little to nothing into taxes and year after year they get $5000-7000 back (which they promptly blow instead of paying off debt). My husband and I work our butts off and year after year we end up owing money. I tell my sisters You’re Welcome every time I see them.
This last year I made $20,000 as a sole proprietor. Doesn’t sound like alot does it?? I ended up owing $4800 in taxes because self employed individuals pay the medicare and ss tax twice like any other employer. If this government wants small businesses to succeed (they say that is what is supposed to pull us out of this economy slump) then why do they tax small business to death??
Maybe I should just stop being a hard worker and live off the government like my sisters?? The government will PAY me to do that. But if I try to make a better life for my family…well that definitely deserves to be PENALISED!! Stop spending money you don’t have government and get out of my pockets UNCLE SAM!!
March 16th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
I’m in the IRSes 25% tax group and and had 28,000 taken in taxes from me. Thats correct 1/3 of my income after the IRS, state, fica and medicare get done with my check. You say good tax him some more! Sooner or later I’ll figure out that it is easyer not to work and so will every one else in my tax group. I’ll quit work, pay no taxes and get a fat check at the end of the year and get free heath care like all the people that don’t want to be inconvenenced by school loans and hard work. Wait until you earn a dollar and they give you 66 cents. Think about it, for every 100 dollars you make 34 dollars of it will never touch your hand. when you make 1000, 340 of its gone. Then at the end of the year if you claim no one on your w4 you may not have to pay any more taxes. The sad part is that the politicians have mismanaged the government so badly that I will probilly never see a social security check of any kind and if I do it will be such a small percentage of what I paid in every month it wont be worth the paper its printed on. Obama is trying to spend more money we dont have and things are not looking up for the average man. Just like everyone else I live pay check to pay check. Just waiting for my next tax bill to come in so I can send out another check. Eventually just having a job will qualify you as rich. I cant wait to let you all pay for my lazyness!
March 17th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Common people, get to work. The lazy Obamites welfare depends on us footing the bill. I’m by no stretch of the imagination rich, I live a good lifestyle but suffer the same way others do. My house lost 30% of it’s value wiping out my entire down payment. I had to write a check to walk from it. I lost my job took a 40% pay reduction when I found a new job. I still have college loans we’re repaying. But raising the taxes is a slap to everyone’s face. Furthermore this ObamaCare will whack everyone with an additional 13% tax for substandard care. I’m not mathematician or tax advisor but I see that to mean 41% taxes for any family making 130-209k a year. WAKE THE #$%^ UP AMERICA! We can’t afford our ways. The federal government needs to be stabbed into submission starting with the Czars that hail Obama has created. No obamacare, vote everyone you can out come November because democratic or republican those fat cats have lost their sense of reality.
March 17th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
There are plenty of people in the lower tax bracket’s that dont do drug’s, are responsible , get up early to work all day then get home late.Then there are people that work just as hard and make million’s a year. its all abount the cards youve been dealt i think people like that should pay 50% in taxes to the people who work hard and are not as lucky . What can you do with 400 million that you cant do with 40 million. Just goes to show how spolied american’s are. Thell move than likely leave all that money to there kids and there kids who will turn out to be a– h—-s.in The end there will just be a bunce of rich a–h—-s.Before long the us will be hollywood
March 17th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
Yeah, Jim, it’s all about “luck”.
Actually that’s just the justification people give so they don’t have to try harder and feel righteous with their wealth envy (you know, by refering to the rich as “a- h—-s”.
It’s not all about hard work. You can work 80 hour weeks flipping burgers, but you’re never going to get rich. You have to take risks, like going into business for yourself. Or invest time to go to school to learn a skill others will pay for.
What about all the immigrants who came to this country with nothing but the shirts on their backs, but managed to excel? Why did they come to this country? Because it was a better environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to succeed, perhaps? Or did they all suddenly get “dealt a good hand” when they got off the boat?
If I make $1 million a year and you make $12,000 a year, you think 50% of my money should be taken and distributed to you and others? Tell me why you think you have a lien on my life. I’m not your slave. You don’t own my life or the fruits of my hard work and investment. If I freely choose to give you money, that’s my choice. But if you use the government as a proxy for your theft, you’re still a thief.
Stop depending on “luck” and make smart decisions. I knew a young woman a few years ago who always whined about being “unlucky”. She’d gotten knocked up in highschool, married the guy, had a second child, got divorced, then had another child out of wedlock, and had no job and no assets. At the time I was young and believed the “unlucky” bit and thought I’d help her out, since I was much better off than her. I gave her and her children a place to live, I helped her get into college and bought all of her books. She was set! After two semesters, she had a 0.0 GPA because she missed too many classes because she was too lazy to get her butt out of bed and go to class. When she started whining about her “luck” again, I pointed out it had nothing to do with luck, but that at EVERY SINGLE important decision point in her life, she made the wrong choice.
March 17th, 2010 at 10:49 pm
Hey Jim, bullshit! “The cards you’ve been dealt” is simply BS whining. For the most part, everybody is dealt a full hand of equal opportunity. It’s not the hand that you’ve been dealt that determines your fate, it’s what you do with the hand your dealt.
If you want to run around whining that about people with no ambition (regardless of how hard they work) then go ahead. As far as the 50% bracket you talk about (speaking of a-h–s). Get your butt to work. get the ambition to be taxed on that at 50% and then realize that SS and Medicare takes about another 10%, state taxes take another 7% to 10% and sales taxes on consumption take another 5% (unless you spend everything you make, then it could be 8+%). Okay, now throw in utility taxes, excise taxes, property taxes and pretty soon you start realizing that you are getting to keep about 20% of what you earned while lazy ass people like, well,,,you, whine about others not supporting you well enough so that you can get a newer car, better LCD TV and can buy cigarettes, booze and dog food with food stamps! PARASITES do that!
March 18th, 2010 at 11:32 am
my friend complains of being taxed 50%, possibly now 60. stop whining, if youre making that much, youre not hurting at all. oh, must be tough only making 6 figures. boo hoo.
March 18th, 2010 at 11:40 am
I am currently paying a 28% tax rate. I own a home that is worth $250,000 and I just recently bought a brand new Traverse and will probably buy a new car to go a long with it. I live a very comfortable life.
I grew up in a family where where my mom was self employed. She cleaned houses for a living. My dad was a janitor at the elementary school.
I find it very unfair for me to sit here and complain about my tax rate. Maybe I’ll have to decide that I need to buy a Malibu instead of Lexus. Maybe I won’t tear out my brand new ceramic tiles and put in hard wood floors. Maybe I’ll delay the trip to Disneyland for a year. Maybe I’ll only spend a couple thousand on my family at Christimas. These will be very tough compromises but I can probably do it.
Anyone making over 100,000K and complaining about their tax rate is crazy. The people making between 68K-75k I can understand some frustration.
The big complaint about taxes should come from the people in the low 15% range and the 10% range. Taxes effect their life and their ability to survive. For everyone else it provides people with something to complain about rather then just being able to enjoy their life and how lucky they are.
Maybe the people complaining should down size from that Lexus to a Malibu. Maybe trying buying a used car. I know it will be rough but try to hang in there.