2010 Federal Income Tax Brackets (IRS Tax Rates)
Death and taxes. You can try to fight them both tooth and nail, but at the end of it all, it’s a losing proposition. Especially when it comes to taxes, the government is going to want its fair share cut of your salary and business profits one way or another, whether you like it or not. Rather than engage in tax evasion and possibly live the remaining years of your life on the run as a tax fugitive from the long arm of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), you might as well confront the issue of taxes head on. All we can do is try our best to understand how income taxes work and take reasonable steps to minimize their effects on our financial lives as much as possible.
One of the most introductory ways to plan for the effects of income taxes is to recognize how the various marginal rates are applied to the corresponding tax brackets. Because the United States does not yet currently engage in a flat tax system, our taxable incomes are broken down into different taxation ranges with specific taxation percentages assessed depending on where they fall along the tax bracket spectrum. Although our 2010 tax returns won’t be filed until April 15, 2011, for planning purposes, it’s always good to find out the new changes to the tax code as early as possible. Let’s examine some of the upcoming tax rate changes that are being projected for 2010 and compare them to the previous year’s 2009 tax brackets.
Projections Of New IRS Tax Rates Have Historically Been Extremely Accurate
Year after year, even before the official IRS income tax brackets are released, a select number of tax experts have gotten together and crunched a determinative number of officially released statistics by governmental agencies – to project and extrapolate the upcoming year’s tax brackets. Year after year, the tax rate predictions released by these groups have yielded results in advance with near 100% accuracy. Such an income tax bracket projection ahead of time is possible because many of the major tax code numbers are pegged to officially released inflation statistics – including the standard deduction, the personal exemption, the actual income ranges of the tax brackets, and contributions limits for the investment retirement accounts (both the Traditional and Roth IRA account).
One of these tax prognosticating groups is the Tax Foundation, a Washington D.C. think tank which collects data and publishes research studies on federal and state tax policies. The other notable group operates under the auspices of the Wall Street Journal and is comprised of a merry band of private tax professionals and economists – namely William E. Massey, a senior tax analyst from the Tax and Accounting arm of Thomson Reuters; George Jones, a senior federal tax analyst from CCH; and James C. Young, an accounting professor from Northern Illinois University. For numerous years now, both the Tax Foundation and the Wall Street Journal group have consistently released to the public very accurate, albeit unofficial, early bird peaks at the following year’s projected income tax brackets based on available financial data – well in advance of the official IRS releases. If you’re eager to get a head start on tax year 2010, read on.
IRS Tax Rate Schedule Updates For Tax Year 2010
This year, citing a very sluggish economy and extraordinarily low inflation rates for 2009 to which upcoming 2010 tax rates shall be pegged to, the Tax Foundation and associated experts are predicting very little year to year change for the 2010 federal tax brackets. If there’s anything good that came out of this global economic recession that has been plaguing us for the entirety of 2009 – it’s that the combination of low gas prices, depressed consumer spending, and high jobless numbers with so many people filing for unemployment – have enabled inflation rates to stay quite low during the span of 2009 – at a mere 0.19%. Just compare that to the incredibly high inflation rate of 4.26% during the previous year of 2008 when gas prices were skyrocketing, and it’s clear the recent sudden and precipitous drop in inflation has been extremely unprecedented.
As a result of low inflation, for the most part the 2010 tax bracket ranges will likely stay relatively unchanged. As noted by the tax pundits, for the very first time since the IRS started to index the official federal income tax rates to inflation during the mid 1980’s, taxpayers will get virtually no significant benefit from inflation in 2010. As such – year 2010 tax brackets, standard deductions, personal exemptions, and even retirement account contribution limits will see very little (if any) alterations from prior year numbers.
I will update the table below to reflect the official IRS tax rates for 2010 if decidedly different numbers are ultimately released by the IRS. However, with tax bracket projections by the experts having enjoyed a near perfect accuracy rate for quite a few years now, I don’t have any reason to doubt that the displayed figures below will ultimately wind up as official.
Federal Income Tax Brackets For 2010 – Based On Taxable Income Ranges
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Beyond some slight numerical shuffling of the taxable income ranges, there will not be too many significant tax changes from 2009 into 2010. Here is a breakdown of the projected changes (if any) for 2010 as they compare to the prior year:
- Personal Exemption: No change. For the very first time, the standard exemption for 2010 will not be going up and will stay unchanged at $3,650, the same as it was in 2009.
- Standard Deduction: No change, except for Head Of Household filers. The standard deduction for married couples filing jointly will remain unchanged at $11,400. For those filing as single, the standard deduction will remain at $5,700 as well. However, Head of Household filers will see a slight increase by $50 – from $8,350 (year 2009) to $8,400 (year 2010).
- Overall Tax Bracket Thresholds: Will increase across the board for all tax filing statuses, albeit at a significantly lower amount compared to past tax year increases.
- Annual Gift Tax Exclusion Amount: No change. For tax year 2010, the current gift tax exclusion limit of $13,000 will stay the same. Often overlooked by most taxpayers, the gift tax stipulates that gift givers must pay a special tax on gift amounts that exceed a certain amount per year.
- Traditional and Roth IRA Contribution Limits: No change. Despite the fact that IRA and Roth IRA contribution limits did not rise in 2009 in response to strong inflationary pressures in 2009, there will still be no corresponding change in the maximum contribution limits to individual retirement accounts for 2010. The standard IRA contribution limit for 2010 will remain unchanged at $5,000. The catch up contribution limit for those 50 or older will remain at $6,000 as well.
October 7th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Where’s the reward for being successful? Being solidly in the 25% bracket, we pay our fair share as productive citizens. Last year’s filings were quite an eye opener from previous ones (and we know the reasons why). We live a moderately frugal life, and will definitely get more aggressive in maximizing what advantages still remain for small business owners.
October 7th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
It is disappointing to have to pay 35% of income to the gov’t. This is why the mortgage interest deduction is so much more powerful for a high income earner than a lower one.
October 7th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Why can’t this federal government and the President Barack Obama administration get together and come up with a fairer tax system? Why are they fussing around with health care when taxes have a greater universal impact on our lives?
It’s time we abolish the existing marginal tax rates and throw out the existing and cumbersome tax codes…and replace them with a flat tax of say 5 to 10% and then impose a stiffer sales tax on products and services based on consumption instead. I’m sick of paying out so much money in the form of taxes when I don’t even consume all that much resources in this economy. I’ve been trying to save for an emergency fund but it’s nearly impossible with all of the hefty income taxes (both state and federal) that I have to keep shelling out.
Meanwhile, all of the rich tycoons and CEO’s are able to bypass the high tax brackets through tax shelters like the home mortgage deduction and buy all of the yachts and expensive indulgences they want. It’s not fair!
October 7th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Those of you rich folks in the top 35% tax bracket need to stop whining. You don’t get to whine. I hope this administration taxes the beejesus out of you all…it’s time you paid your fair share and get with the program. It’s only fair the wealthy pay more out of their millions and billions of dollars to subsidize the rest of us who need it the most. We are struggling in this recession and it’s time to fix the problem – by taxing the rich!
October 8th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Gwen – Socialists unite!
October 11th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Nice info that helps us plan for 09 tax filing. Thanks.
October 14th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
umm…by wealthy you mean all those doctors, lawyers, businessmen and double-earner families of mid-level exec + nurse or some such combination, right? I mean, those in the 28% and up categories are not all filthy-rich idle millionaires.
I get tired of people telling me that after my husband completes his seemingly endless education & training in medicine (right now he’s making less than most first-year teachers) he deserves to pay out 28% of his income in taxes (or even better, that he should pay more!) while at the same time not being able to claim any deductions for his college & medical school loans (which are comparable to a good-size mortgage for many). We’ll be paying those off for decades–but since we’re so “rich” we should be taxed out the behind. Right. So that’s the reward for people who scrimp, save, borrow, and work hard to better themselves.
October 15th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Maybe if corporate tax rates were higher than individual tax rates, all the whinny “rich” boys & girls (who think they aren’t already rewarded by their buying power & status, considering $373K a year translates to roughly $1.02K per day before taxes which is what some of us “poorer” kids make per month) would be happier. Could someone explain the logic behind an $18m corporation paying the same tax rate as an individual earning $373K? If the government held corporations more accountable, the government wouldn’t be digging so deeply into the upper crust’s pockets…and so obviously pissing them off.
October 17th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
The gov’t needs to get out of our lives and stop giving those that would rather not work a free ride. Less GOV’T = less gov’t spending = less taxes needed. People need to be responsible for themselves. Most politicians could not run a business unless they had a open ended checkbook, for it is evedent they do not understand you cannot spend more than you have.
October 18th, 2009 at 6:48 am
Does anyone know if there any any tax implications if a non-resident alien spouse sends over $10,000 to his/her spouse in USA. Does the American spouse have to show this as income for tax purposes?
October 18th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
I am working a full-time and two part-time jobs. I am trying to save, pay off my student loans and then buy a house (and hopefully buy a newer car than the 1993 vehicle I drive right now). I am also planning on having kids in a couple of years (after I pay these things off). I am working day and night, Sunday through Friday. Why? So the more I make, the more I can give to the government. What is the point? I might use government services (like the road and later schools, etc), but if we had a flat percentage rate, I would still be paying more than someone working less, or getting paid less overall. Why would I get taxed a higher percentage? This makes no sense. I am not using governmental services more often. In the past, I have always been in the lower tax brackets and I had never looked to see how much more I would be taxed for making more money (until now, because I have three jobs).
October 20th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Hey lola-
Corporations are us. There isn’t some “magical” corporation out there. The owners of all those businesses you always hear about are your neighbors (who own their stock). And we’re sick of having to pay taxes twice on our earnings-once when our corporation earns it and once when we pay it to ourselves as dividends. There’s no magic pot of money out there to pay for government functions. It all comes from us.
Our tax system is progressive enough as it is. If you’re truly a $1000K/month earner, you don’t pay taxes, they pay you. In fact, over 40% of the households in this country don’t pay ANY federal income tax. How is that fair? You don’t drive on the roads? The soldiers and police don’t defend your home?
The “rich” are getting socked enough as it is. They pay more in health care insurance to cover those who don’t carry it because they “can’t afford it.” Then they pay more in taxes to cover those on disability, medicaid, WIC, HUD etc etc etc. You think everyone on disability can’t work? You think everyone on medicaid/disability spends the dollars responsibly and gets off as soon as they can? Welcome back from fantasy land. They can’t deduct student loan interest. They lose the earned income credit, the retirement savings credit, the exemptions on their kids, the ability to use a Roth IRA or deduct a traditional IRA etc etc etc.
I don’t mind a progressive tax system and paying a higher percentage of my income then those who make less, but everyone needs to pay something. For most middle class Americans federal income tax is INCOME TO THEM, not a payment they have to make. Meanwhile, they’re buying McMansions and running up their credit card bills and making those of us responsible enough to make the payments we’ve agreed to foot the bill and bail them out. This stupid $250 stimulus Obama is giving to seniors is another stupid handout. Social security is indexed to inflation. Guess what? We had negative inflation this year (deflation) so social security payments should go down? Who ever told you they were supposed to go up every year? The pussies in Congress are afraid to say no. They rather we go bankrupt. But when they decide bankrupt is a bad idea what do they do? Oh, the rich can pay. Send them the bill.
I’ve been poor, and I’ve been “rich.” I chose to eat beans and rice, go to school, work hard, and sacrifice. Don’t feel like you’re entitled to the wealth I’m creating by busting my ass. Go make your own.
October 20th, 2009 at 12:40 am
P.S. This “rich guy” is in the 25% bracket. But I hope to be in the 33% bracket soon. But hopefully because I’m making more money, and not because Congress decided to raise my taxes again.
October 24th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
That government that governs best governs least. Mr Obama, get your hands out of my wallet!
October 26th, 2009 at 6:11 am
If everybody would mind their own business they wouldn’t be griping so much. Money will come and go, some people were blessed with riches. Others were not. Alot of people inherited their riches and we are not allowed to be mad at them for what their family created for them. I am unfortunately unwealthy, but money can not buy happiness. I have a beautiful wife and kids, I am just fine. You cant go on living life stressing all the small things. You could be living on the streets or in a shelter somewhere, be fortunate that you are able to write these comments. God bless!
October 26th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Anyone in the higher tax brackets SHOULD GET TO KEEP THEIR MONEY! Taxing the rich more sucks!! Oh and for the record, I have been in the 15% bracket most of my adult life, so I am not rich!!
Anybody that makes big dollars has obviously worked hard to get where they are, and they deserve every bit of money they make! And if someone has gotten rich by exploiting loop holes in the system, well they are smarter than you aren’t they?? Knowledge is power, so if someone knows a trick or two that allows them to keep their money, more power to them! Enough of our money goes out to crap that will never do us or our families any good, and that we would not necessarily want to give money to in the first place!
For anyone that is jealous of the people in the higher tax brackets, I say, go take advantage of some government money and go back to school and get your Master’s Degree or your Doctorate and work hard at it, don’t sit around and cry that the rich should be taxed more to support people that don’t want to go out and make something out of themselves. And, for the record, I don’t even have an associates degree, I’m just a die hard conservative who thinks that hard work should be rewarded, and laziness should be penalized. This stupid country has it completely backwards!!
I know there are plenty of people that are not lazy and who work hard, but there are also plenty of lazy people who think the rich, who have succeeded in their field, should support their lazy lifestyles, and that is just wrong!
October 26th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
Thank you so much, Jeff, for that breath of fresh air in such a stifling debate over something that is exactly what you say it is–worry over material possessions. I can see both sides of the argument, and really, I don’t think anyone is truly wrong here, but why worry so much over something as silly as money? Be happy with what you have and be thankful, above all else.
October 28th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
The responses of the people whining on here just shows general illiteracy in history and personal finance people are. Maybe it’s time to watch something else than a reality show and read something else than bible fiction?
November 2nd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Thanks Jeff. I think you are absolutely right.
I am single and I am seeing that my federal tax bracket is much higher (>10%) than those of my married friends who have working wives.
People who earn should be allowed to keep their money instead of paying in terms of taxes for someone lazy and stupid enough to not get a job or those money hungry companies bailout who play foul on the wall street.
I am not saying don’t tax me. But please be within reason and make it flat for everyone.
November 2nd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Enough bull about this whole taxing the rich complaints by the wealthy. If your income is above $100,000 a year, you are rich and can pay more in taxes. Enough said. There are people in this country that are struggling on a few dollars a day and you complain about paying a little bit more in federal taxes out of all that money you make? How dare you!
This tax system is broken and we need a fairer tax system. If socialism is the only way to make this country a better place for everyone, then yes, we want socialism. I want everyone to have a chance in this world and not just allow the super rich to continue running this country into the ground. Why was there even a stimulus check for the big banks and commission payments for the bank employees? Why are we the taxpayer bailing out the rich executives and CEO’s when we are suffering in this recession? We need to bail out the unemployed masses, not the government people in Washington D.C. and the financials in New York City.
This system we have right now only benefits the wealthy an is absolutely wrong! Fair tax is a must and a human right! I hope Obama and the Dems can get this thing done. We need universal health coverage for all citizens and residents, and we need tax brackets that will be fair to everyone.
November 3rd, 2009 at 3:48 am
I think our government should get back to following the constitution that is was founded on. Where in the constitution does it say that citizens should pay 45% of their income to the government?? Where in the constitution does it say that it’s the government’s responsibility to provide healthcare to it’s citizens?? It doesn’t!! It stinks that our government is bankrupting the entire country, and our children’s futures, and there are alot of people sitting around thinking it’s ok because they are down on their luck and wanting someone to bail them out.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:33 am
Miss Swan:
People like you make me sad for my children. People like you are going to tear down this once great nation. People like you will make sure that my children’s America will be worse than the one I grew up in. And I’ve learned the hard way that people like you wil never change, no matter how much logic and facts are presented to you. But I keep trying…
Do you know the government collects almost $2,000,000,000,000 a year in taxes. Thats 2 Trillion if you were wondering. That’s a thousand Billion dollars. Thta’s not enough money to help the “truly needy”? The problem is not the rich, it is the millions of Americans (and illegal aliens) that made horrendous choices in their lives and now expect honest tax payers they have never met to pay for their mistakes. People who go our partying instead of studying in school. People who use drugs because its “cool”. People who have 4 kids from 4 different fathers because that makes them popular or loved. In general, lazy people who feel entitled and get hundreds of billions of dollars a year from responsible people because they are incredibly irresponsible.
With $2T we could quadruple the help to the truly needy and DESERVING just by cutting off the leaches. But youdont want to do that do you Miss Swan. You just want to punish the evil “rich” that go to work before their kids wake up and get home after they are in bed. Yeah, that sounds much more “fair”.
This country is doomed……
November 5th, 2009 at 11:44 am
I enjoy reading how Miss swan suggests that a fair tax is a human right… right along with a house, nice car, and everything else misinformed people believe should be a right… read the words, RIGHT to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS– the pursuit..the oppotunity to gain happiness…NOT THE RIGHT for it to be handed to you! You must work for it…
And those who say well I pay 15% on 20k while the company that made 1,000,000 also pays that 15%— ok so for you its 3000 bucks and for them its 150,000…. sounds fair to me! (and I am in that lower portion that makes under 50k a year!)
November 5th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
So Maria…sure sounds like you’re in favor of a flat tax then. A flat tax sounds fair on paper…after all 20% against a low income person is the same as 20% on a richer, wealthier tycoon right? Each pays the same percentage of their net income in taxes right? Wrong! Flat taxes are inherently unfair. There is a certain basic income level that one needs to survive and taxing even low income wage earners at the same level as that applied to a wealthier individual is not resulting in the same standard of living.
Yes, we all have the right to the pursuit of happiness, but the government has the responsibility to ensure that the playing field is fair and level for all. This is not a free for all island where it’s everyone man for himself. The government must ensure that wealth is distributed fairly to those that really need it. Because we all start off at different income levels and wealth levels in life, the government needs to take it upon itself to do what’s right!
November 6th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Wow. Just when you though Miss Swan couldn’t be topped when it comes to Socialist propogands, here comes Dan with “the government’s job is to redistribute wealth”.
I always found this a very insightful compare and contrast:
Liberals believe that Government exists to provide for the people
Conservatives believe that Government exists to remove barriers so that the people can provide for themselves.
So true.
November 6th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Why does everyone want something for nothing?? If you want more money in your bank account go out get the degree you need to do so. Don’t EXPECT those of us who chose to go to school and further our education to do this. I chose not to live off welfare and foodstamps. I chose not to have other hard working people support me. I
November 6th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
I TAKE CARE OF ME!!! Some of you should try it. You are only what YOU make of yourself!!!!
November 7th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Why do the rich always say that everyone should just lift themselves up. But what happens to the worker who has no choice in what a bank does, has the company he is working for get there credit denied? does that mean the worker should pay for the faults of the rich elite? And where else in the world can you make well over 375k a year and pay this low of a tax break and have a living standard like we do in the U.S.? I say the rich should pay a higher tax rate and if you cant make it on 250k a year… maybe you should look at how the poor are living and that does not mean the people who dont want to work…. I have worked 2 full time jobs at the same time and still could not make all ends meet, I have not had health care for 4 years. and i drive a car that should have been put in a junk yard 5 years ago…. But yet you complain about a high tax rate. Something you should realize is that not everyone has an equal opportunity to move up the social latter. So next time you feel that the poor and lower class worker are just lazy and should lift themselves up, think about yourself working 2 crappy jobs 40 hours a week trying to make it in society…. Some people do need a helping hand ( not a hand out). and the next time i hear about someones freedom being violated because of the tax rate I am going to scream. Your rights are not being taken away because you pay a higher tax rate, your freedoms are being taken away by all the government involvement in peoples personal choices….Abortion,Drugs,speech, Anything that does not effect people outside of the person making the choice should not be restricted from doing that action.
November 8th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
To Financial Samurai — if you are paying 35 percent of your income (earnings?) and by that you mean, taxes/income and not your marginal rate, then you must be doing quite well, are including both sides of the payroll tax and are living in a high tax state and city as in NYC. If so, then count how lucky you are and stop kvetching. Otherwise you sure are not a financial samurai and/or you can’t distinquish between an average and marginal rate, in which case you should either be more precise in what you mean or foreswear commenting about tax structure and policy.
November 9th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Socialist:
You are where you are because of the choices you made and the effort you gave (or didn’t) in your life. Please dont blame others for your situation. Everyone DOES have an equal OPPORTUNITY to move up the social “ladder”. That does not mean that everyone takes advatange of that opportunity. Millions of people decide to take the easy route and not make sacrifices and work hard so that they can make a better life for themselves and their children. Millions of people decide not to study hard in school. They decide to have kids at a young age out of wedlock. They decide to do drugs or commit crimes. Those people should not be on an equal rung of the social ladder as responsible people.
Did you stay in weekends studying in High School so you could get good grades and go to college? Or did you go out partying? Don’t tell me you couldn’t afford college. I dont want to hear it. Growing up in FL, every single State School offered me a free ride if I would stay in state to go to college. Just had to be in the Top 10% of my class. And I’m not even a minority! Most states are exactly the same way.
If you went to college, did you pick a real degree? Something difficult that would give you the skills to get a good job out of college? Enginnerring, Accounting, Finance? Or did you major in Literature or Sociology or Philosophy because it was easier and you didnt have to study? If you had made the right choices you wouldn’t have to work 2 crappy full time jobs for no money.
And I don’t want to hear “my mother was sick and I had to drop out of high school” to support my family. That is the response given by 99% of anonymous internet poster who dont want to admit that their situation in life is of their own doing. 1) There are a million social welfare programs that would have supported your family while you studied hard and went to college and 2) If you really are the one in a million where this case is true, then you should have received a lot more government aid then you did. But all of the other leaches on the system took the moeny away from the families that really deserved the help.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Margaret Thatcher said in 1976:
“Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people’s money. It’s quite a characteristic of them. They then start to nationalise everything, and people just do not like more and more nationalisation, and they’re now trying to control everything by other means. They’re progressively reducing the choice available to ordinary people.”
What will we do when all the rich are gone? Then who will provide jobs for the rest of us and who will pay the taxes?
Those that demand that the rich should pay more are thieves who legitimize their theft by having the government take from the haves and give to the have nots.
By the way, I am not rich but I do believe in our United States Constitution.
November 9th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Dammit…forget about taxes and tax brackets. What about jobs? This country needs jobs!! People who are unemployed and living off of unemployment benefits are angry because the system has let them down. It’s about being dignified, being able to provide for your helpless family, and being provided for by the governmental system. When you’re laid off and the government does nothing to provide for every American citizen who wants a job, there’s something seriously wrong. Enough with this whole health care debate and talks of nationalized health insurance. Bottom line – the government needs to start subsidizing job creation big time. Stop giving our economic stimulus money away to the big name banks. Stop giving our economic stimulus money away to citizens in the form of one time pointless stimulus checks. It’s about jobs, jobs, jobs. Once jobs are up and everyone is fully employed, then let’s talk turkey.
November 10th, 2009 at 10:59 am
I’ve busted ass for four years in college financing it myself and just got my first job (after busting ass to find that too). I started calculating how fast I can pay off my 120k student loan making 50k a year and I figured for years while in college that it would only take a few. WRONG, 38% of my paycheck is now going to taxes.
…time to get married I guess and play the system since the government is so damn involved in every facet of my life. Look in someone elses pockets Mr Obama! (try the 40% of Americans who pay squat in income tax!)
November 13th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Life isnt fair, the people making less think that someone making more is stealing from them, and the “rich” have some how unjustly by being successful should pay, often bad decisions make people less weathy, life is about building, it was said once the way to getting rich is slowly, my wife and I both have always worked, and finally after 30 years, make 150,000 a year, we live in a modest ranch style house, (15 year morgage paid for in 8 years) have paid for our educations in cash, helped with our sons education in cash, maxed out our K-plans, watch our pensions stolen or standing by to be stolen, we raise a garden, drive our cars untill the wheels fall off, we live by the rule of very little or no debt, we dont own toys and read allot, no big screen tvs here, dont even have a dish washer. Dont smoke, dont drink, Look back on your life and ask, did I do all I could by myself to get my standard of life, could I have made better descisions, could I have moved, gone to school, stayed married, having your yearly social security statments will help, yes life isnt fair you will always have people who have enough and want more and expect others to pay, job creation have left the states because of you letting them, letting your vote mean nothing, keep begging for more handouts and you will be poorer, sorry your life sucks, but buck up and get off your ass and go work for it where every you can find it, and just maybe you might appreicate what you have and earn more, and just in case you missed something, my wife and I have lost five jobs in the last 30 years. And as for the market crash, we beat that one by a year by getting out, we knew there was a train wreak coming and we did just fine, you have to pay attention to everything in life and if you cant why should others compound your problems by giving you more of our money.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Well said Josh, I should have read your statements, before writting mine, you are right on target, John Wayne said it once, “life is tough, and it is tougher if you are stupid” what people are going through needs to be looked at as temporary, work harder, take your licks, and figure out how you are going to move onto the next phase of your life, beating your present condition, others have and so will you, your going to learn what your momm’s didnt teach you, life is tough, but giving more of mine isnt going to make you tougher, it will make make it worse for you the next time, by the way the super mega rich they are going to tax, is in the 150,000 dollar range, thats me, there isnt enough super mega rich around to make a differance, and if you had not borrowed all of that money and paid that interst to the super banks, then they would not be the super banks. congrads, you helped make the problem by giving them your money, now you complain, figure out how much of your income over the course of your working life went to interest at a bank.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:36 am
ANGRY SAYS – you are right, the eco-movement have forced good jobs out and are doing there best to get the rest, feel for you, america used to make everything we used, and that was in my lifetime, buy american, but then the unions forced there elite needs on everyone else and took more then they deserved. Governement has taken over for the unions and become the taker….it is a mess….keep up hope some how, wish you luck
November 13th, 2009 at 10:41 am
JD and others, read allot of true comments today, glad Im not alone, we are the unheard majority, tax us 12,000 dollars less a year and see what kind of stimulas we have.
November 13th, 2009 at 10:54 am
To Dan C. – Read your consitution, the government does not have the “responsablity” to make the playing field level, we as citizens have the resposnablity to make the playing field level. Your off base here buddy, sorry but all of our efforts are not the same, so why take from someone who has the stress and the hard work to “level the playing field” for those that dont, I know people are working 2-3 jobs to make it, and I feel for them, I have been there, longer then I wanted, but I didnt take a handout by having the playing field leveled, that is socialism.
November 13th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Maybe this country needs a good war on its soil, destroying our land and property to see what we really have, that would wake everyone up, that would make everyone equal, we dont deserve more the our god given rights, and I did say GOD given rights, everything else is gravy and food on the table. Thanks for your comments, I just got on this page to see the tax tables for next year so that I can plan my life and how much I will have left, before I pay, I wish all you guys luck next year and a better life.
November 17th, 2009 at 1:23 am
Wow…what a horrible world we live in. I can’t believe people actually think this way. How awful and sad. The world is not so black and white. Not everyone that is struggling financially is lazy or hasn’t tried hard enough. There will always be people that take advantage of the system but not everyone is that way. It is arrogant to assume that you have all the answers and that you can just judge someone based on how much money they have. Unfortunately not all hardworking people get ahead in life. There are plenty of hard working people that are struggling. There are also plenty of lazy people that are wealthy and never had to work hard for what they have. Life just isn’t fair and is certainly not cut and dry.
Oh and by the way…there are plenty of people that went to college that are struggling financially and there are plenty of people that never went to college that are wealthy. So whether someone went to college or not does not determine how their life will turn out.
Yes, I did go to college.
Somehow this discussion took a bad turn and became more about what you think of poor people rather than what you think of taxes.
November 17th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Someone:
It is exactly your mentality that will keep “the poor” living in poverty and dependent on the government not for years, but for generations. If you look back at the dialogue on this blog, it is pretty consistent that truly needy and deserving people should get the temporary help they need when they find themselves on hard times. Unfortunately, hundreds of billions of dollars are being stolen from these people by the lazy, undeserving individuals that have decided to game the system. So much more could be done to help the poor rise out of poverty if we werent wasting this massive sum of money every year.
But your way of thinking is shared by tens of millions in this country. We cant cut back on one single social welfare program. We can’t apply any real standards of how and to whom this money is given out. Give the money to everyone, and you are bound to give it to at least a few truly needy and deserving people. The massive fraud and abuse? Thats just a price we pay for “doing the right thing”.
Please think about this for a few minutes. The Wall Street Journal did a study a few years back where they looked at thousands of recipients of government social programs. Welfare, foodstamps, public housing, MediCaid, etc. They found that over 70% had one or more of three characteristics in common. 1) Had at least one child out of wedlock 2) Dropped out of High School and 3) Convicted of a crime. I was shocked, but not surpriswd when I read this.
Please tell me how more money solves these problems? I would much rater stop rewarding these individuals for bad behavior and decision making and triple the benefits that the other 30% receive.
November 17th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Your tax dollars go to ridiculous world policing and unneccessary wars created and prolonged by inept leaders and fear mongers who make a profit from the business of war and oil and are so stupid they couldn’t even book a tupperware party.
War and corporate welfare is what you should be angry about. Welfare for rich people is what should be pissing you off about the US. By definition, it’s quite impossible for poor people to have all of your money, isn’t it? Your taxes go to the lazy rich, not the lazy poor. Wake up, America.
November 17th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
$932,891,425,796 and running for your stupid war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Get a grip and grow up.
November 17th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Josh. Riddle us this, O great hardworking honest American: how long has it taken America to ever spend $932,891,425,796 on welfare programs as opposed to wars and what kind of genius plan is that? The dollars for war versus dollars for poverty isn’t even close. I have a hard time endorsing the use of tax dollars for destroying other people on the planet rather than for taking care of our own, but, I have a feeling that you’ll try to make a case for that. Try doing it without using the words “terrorists”, “socialism” or “pride”. Please.
November 17th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
ANARCHY!!!
Haha…
It’s the government.
Do you really think they are trying to do what’s best for us?
November 18th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Bottom Line we need a tax overhaul, after 29 years in the work force I’m going from the 15% bracket to the 28% bracket. The only draw back is the tax increase that I will have to pay. One fundamental foundations of this country was to build on prosperity. Our country THE Administrations’ of the past and the present has destroyed the tax system. Now more then ever now being in the economic down turn the tax system needs to be streamed line. You have to strive to be in the next highest tax bracket to live as you done in years past. The Gov’t and it’s unconscious decisions in passing bills with hidden agendas lead back to increased taxes to us and in turn we have to make more $ for WHAT TAXES. Go offshore
November 18th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
I am for doing good to the poor, but…I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed…that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.
~Benjamin Franklin
November 19th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Well “fierce” lime…According to the most recent breakdown of 2007 Federal Spending, we spent 980B on Social Security and Medicare. And we spent an additional 570B on Social Welfare Programs like Medicaid, Welfare, Unemployment, Food Stamps, government housing, EITC, etc. So to answer your questions, it takes us about 8 months of spening for government social programs to equal the cost of ~8 years of Iran and Afghanistan war spending (thats if your numbers are true. I didnt research it but just gave you that one). Even f you wantto back out SSI and Medicare, it takes less than 2 years of other welfare programs to equal almost a decade of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Sorry to let facts get in you way.
Also, I just want to say this its obvious by your writing that you are synmpathetic to the “terrorists”and beleive that America is a greater threat to the world than Islamic Jihadism. You most certainly desire a “Socialist” system in America and around the world. And you obviously have little to no “pride” for this great country. Did I fit them all in?
November 19th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
I’m in the 15% and I’m going to say that Gwen has stated the most absurd thing I’ve heard in awhile…I don’t make a lot of money (obviously) but I’m not asking for hand outs from more successful people than myself. Generally speaking, they worked hard for what they have and if you had the income you wouldn’t want to give it away either. It’s not their job to support you because your life has failed, miserably or because you lack the motivation to improve your situation. Nothing annoys me more than people who blame more successful people for their crappy life. Start making $350k a year and then tell me you want to pay taxes because other people can’t get their shit together.
November 19th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Josh:
u sure do spend alot of time on the internet….?
November 20th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
S:
Touche! “u” certainly have got me there. Please disregard my previous posts as the ramblings of an internet addict.
November 20th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
I have my own opinions, but my opinions can sometimes change if I openly listen to the opinions of others. Keep this conversation going…I am on the fence on a few issues and would like to continue to hear your thoughts.
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Following last night’s senate vote, there are several things you can kiss goodbye. One is your wallet, regardless of your income unless you are close to the poverty line. Second, are the taxes that all those “rich” doctors pay. Under the German Health plan of socialized medicine, doctors make the equivalent of $80,000 a year. So not only can you say goodbye to the high tax rates that doctors PAY, you can say goodbye to doctors in general. Who in their right mind will spend 12 years in training, go in debt upwards of a quarter mill to get that training, for a job that just MIGHT barely hit six figures. I feel for GC, who laid out the kind of financial bind many new doctors have already discovered. It will be catastrophic for them if Obamao gets his way. (not a misspelling)
That bill will kill businesses, our superior and easily accessible healthcare system, and ultimately, our country. Forget about 20 plus million more people being insured, as there won’t BE any doctors to see them. What good is coverage with no doctors?
If you have not already, contact all of your legislators and tell them not to vote for the death nell of our country. Fix the problems, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. And don’t believe that nonsense about how all this “change” is going to reduce the national debt. If it is approved as planned, it will cost us an additional 2 trillion. We already owe 12 trillion. What are those concrete heads thinking?
By the way, if you think doctors are rich, better look at their divorce rate, stress level and the fact that on average they die 15 years sooner than their peers.
Enjoy the debate, but remember, our national house is on fire and almost no one is paying attention.
November 22nd, 2009 at 8:57 pm
For all of you people who say those making more should pay more taxes, do the math. 25% of 130,000 is more that 25 % of 70,OOO. And 25% of 130,000 is a heck of a lot more than 15% of 30,000 or 10% of 15,000. And for those who are blessed to make even more, the are paying more.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Something to think about …..
When you send your money to the government, it then hands part of it back to you for programs like welfare, schools, roads, and now “healthcare”. The Government first takes out a big chunk to pay the federal bureaucracy, then passes down what is left which often is less than 30%. The new Healthcare program will cost much more than we are paying from private healthcare now or we have to cut back on services. Just watch and see. For some reason too many people seem to think the new “public health care” system will be nearly free, but there is no such thing.
November 27th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
For those of you who are honestly saying to those of us who are talented enough to earn the money we make, and put in the time and effort and stress that we do to make it – I say, you deserve where you are in life.
Go read an economics book (I have an economics undergrad so I am at least as credible as my liberal, socialist teachers made me). You are in squalor precisely because of the tax rates on the rich. My money is now going into a savings account, instead of into the economy as velocity of money. I was offered a raise this year if I would sign up to some personal targets that would have made my life miserable. I looked at what I would get to keep (less than 50% after all in) and decided it wasn’t worth it…wealth was destroyed from the system – the same system you are hanging out in at the bottom.
But my money continues to go to the Govt in larger amounts, and you continue to live in squalor needing help. Why do you think that is? Again – go read an economics book. Government is not your answer.The $20,000+ I gave to charity last year turned into nothing this year because I got whacked with some arcane AMT burden that I will be paying off for 3 years. I also will not be moving, not be buying a new car to support overpaid union workers in Detroit, and I won’t be investing in companies to get the economy moving again.
Handle your rig before you make uninformed comments. If you are at the bottome, it is a combination of randomness (which lefties and atheists worship) and personal failure.
Sorry – but I have no mony to give you now.
November 27th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
JC has hit the nail on the head. The dis-incentivization of the higher wage earners by way of high tax brackets is sure to flatline the recovery. At this point, the top 1% of wage earners pay over 40% of the total federal income tax paid by the American people. If you think that is not enough, and apparently it isn’t according to Obama and his henchmen, then wait until those wage earners become ex-patriots. Margaret Thatcher was right when she said, “The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
You see, people like JC are pushed to just save the money, not stimulate the economy, then retire to a country like Costa Rica. Very soon some of these third world countries will provide more freedom than the U.S. will. They will also look forward to receiving hundreds of billions of dollars courtesy of the U.S. and other developed countries as a result of the much ballyhooed Copenhagen treaty soon to be signed by Obama. That’s right, it’s time to spread the wealth. Oh, wait a minute, we have no wealth. That’s ok, we’ll just borrow a couple trillion more from China (who won’t be participating in the carbon pay out to other countries) so we can pay the carbon debt. Oh, but that means even higher taxes!
Oh, but wait, the “climate change” problem was just recently exposed as a myth; a myth designed to sap America of its power and “spread the wealth” to less fortunate citizens and poorer nations (who are poor due to the lack of capitalism). You won’t see the liberal press covering that little item though, will you. No, because they are all enthralled with this liberal ‘throw the U.S. under the bus’ mentality spewed out by our liberal leaders.
Ladies and gentlemen, it matters not what tax bracket you are in. Your taxes are going up no matter what the silver tongued devil from Harvard tells you. Eventually though, you won’t have people with a strong work ethic, ambition and high earning power to pay the bills. Good luck with that. I look forward to never paying the wonderful AMT (alternative minimum tax) ever again. I will miss this country as it used to be, and should have been forevermore, the greatest country in the history of the world.
Signed,
No longer throwing good money after bad.
P.S. See you on the beach
November 30th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Very well said Josh, JC and cogipro. I’ve sat here for ten minutes trying to think of something to say that you haven’t already covered. And Josh – I’m glad you spend a lot of time on the internet. Obviously not as much as S does or u wuld b ritin ur hole articel like dis.
December 1st, 2009 at 11:14 am
It’s tough to listen to the politicians who run on the theme that the rich should pay their fair share. That stance gets a lot of votes in a country that seems to be turning on smart, successful people and innovative corporations, the type of people and companies that built this country into what it is today.
I do think all people should pay their fair share. A flat tax on income would go a long way towards accomplishing that (I know there are some other issues such as deductions that this does not address). Anyway, every citizen should contribute a little, even if they end up taking more back in terms of the programs and other entitlements of which they are beneficiaries.
Let’s use an 18% flat tax as an example. You earn $40, 000, you pay $7,200; you earn $400,000, you pay $72,000; you earn $4,000,000, you pay $720,000. So, you can see that the rich will still be paying for almost all of the costs of running the federal government and all of its programs that the people at the lower income level enjoy. This to me seems fair – at least all citizens would have some skin in the game.
December 1st, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Taxes are simply a means of paying for government spending. Our national debt is now at an estimated 12 trillion dollars ($12,023,527,103,043.84). There were 155 million (155,490,000) federal income tax returns filed in 2008 which means that if we wanted to wipe out our national debt this year (excluding compounding interest) each family would have to pay 77 million dollars ($77,326,690.48) before the end of the year. Let me ask you, Mr. and Mrs. $50,233 national median income tax filer, do you have a spare 77.3 million dollars you could mail in to Washington this Christmas? Of course, we need 100% participation!
I’m only rich in the eyes of someone from a third-world country (25% tax bracket), but I’m ready for a “fair”, accross-the-board flat-tax with no exemptions for individuals or corporations. Cut the IRS down to about 250 people saving 100’s of billions of dollars in government employee costs, tax preparation expenses and eliminate loopholes. How about it?
The vast majority of your fellow countrymen aren’t “rich” because of luck, inheritance or by cheating, it’s because they are creative, intelligent, hard-working, shrewd and thrifty. As an example, the average millionaire in this country started from almost nothing and drives a used pick-up truck. (for more read “The Millionaire Next Door”).
The bottom line is to vote for representatives who will reduce government spending, not increase it – this will cause the eventual decreasing of tax rates. It might also be nice if less than the current 46% of the population who pay zero federal taxes would be required to help fund the thousands of pages of unread legislation that their elected leaders are signing into law in the middle of the night while silencing the protests of the representatives of the other “half” of the country.
December 1st, 2009 at 5:22 pm
I’m in the 15% tax bracket (right now) and thought it was a possibility we could get bumped up, so I decided to google “2010 tax brackets” and here I am.
I’d like to say that i’m also “on the fence” about things. I dont know the “solution” to the problem……but I do know that what we have now isnt working.
I’m 23 and work 30+ hours a week, and also go to school to be a nurse, and my husband is a prison guard. My husband made some bad choices while in college (choosing to go to private school) and we are 70K in student loan debt. Needless to say- on paper we make good money, however after the 700 student loan payments, the car payment, and the mortgage payment, it doesnt leave much left over. (we arent big spenders, our mortgage is LESS than the student loans, one car is over a 12 years old)
We accept these mistakes and the fact that we are struggling right now…and have learned from them.
We aren’t anywhere near what i’d consider “rich” but some people would consider us “rich” because we are at the high end of our tax bracket.
For those of you who think that the “rich” should pay MORE in taxes are rediculous. I think EVERYONE should pay the same taxes.
Here is one of the reasons why.
A coworker of mine, makes about 23K a year. She currently has 3 daughters in her household (and one is out of the house & has 2 different different kids by different fathers, and lives off of our tax money). This coworker also has a working husband, however he is a “chef” in a bar, who grills burgers- who makes 12 dollars an hour CASH (24K a year). So on her taxes she claims a family of 5 living off of 23 K a year. Needless to say at tax time she gets a REFUND of 11,000! So basically she is ‘BEING PAID’ to NOT better herself. when all is said and done, they make nearly 60K a year after their tax handout. Not to mention her daughter gets financial aid at our community college-and got 2000 extra a semester, than what her classes cost.
Moral of the story- why should hard workers have to support this? Just because we make more…doesnt mean we should pay more.
When this same lady was considering college(which she would have gotten FOR FREE)- to be a medical transcriptionist (which would pay about 20K more a year)…she opted against it because “she would miss her daughters 7th grade basketball games” …i mean..theres nothing like giving up the opportunity to better yourself-since your daughter wouldnt have 5 more years of basketball games to play in….. and heaven forbid maybe having to give up that extra 11K that you didnt even earn!
I totally have no problem paying taxes- (for schools, roads, to help people who are TEMPORARILY having a hard time) I just dont think that some people should be paying ALOT…and those who dont pay taxes, pocketing it.
I think those people in america at the “bottom” have the most OPPORTUNITY to make it to the TOP!
December 1st, 2009 at 9:13 pm
People not making enough money to pay taxes, aren’t “pocketing” whatever subsidies they do get. They’re spending it so they can at least try to stay alive, and in a position to move up (not living in squalor in the streets for example).
Progressive tax rates make sense when the budget’s needs aren’t being met. The reason is very simple, in that the amount of money a person needs to live will generally remain constant between incomes, but when someone earns less it becomes less viable to actually get by if you’re paying the same rate.
It’s not fair, and it’s not right, but the difference needs to be made up somewhere: that’s where inflated rates for higher earners, who should be able to afford it and still have more resources than those that can’t, come in. However all that said, the IRS, and many budget expenses, are a bit crooked in how they handle things.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:32 pm
With all this angst about taxing, I’m surprised no one has mentioned the FAIRTAX.
step 1 – repeal the 16th amendment
step 2 – eliminate the IRS
step 3 – pay every wage earner 23% of the Federal poverty level
step 4 – eliminate all payroll, corporate and Social Security taxes
step 5 – institute a 23% sales tax on all new products sold in the US.
details @ FAIRTAX.ORG
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:05 am
Just a few additional thoughts:
1) “Fair” is where you take you pig to get a ribbon.
2) There will never be a flat tax due to the inability to get a majority in congress on this subject AND the fact that congress just can’t seem to decrease the budget no matter how much it makes sense.
I personally don’t mind the marginal tax rate system we have, despite the fact that I am paying in absurd amounts. The only thing that makes sense in this climate is to shrink the budget (see #2) to closely approximate what is currently being raised. If my taxes have to go up a modest amount to cover reasonable expenses, fine. As long as we do not move up into the oppressive tax rates of 42% and higher for ANYONE, I’m fine with it. Above that discourages economic growth.
Lastly, the liberals behind the proposed “share the sacrifice” legislation that adds 1% tax for those making from $30000-$150,000, and a 5% added tax for income above $150,000 to pay for the wars we are in is patently absurd. It is a ploy to get more money to support their liberal socialistic programs that are part of the whole Obama deception.
While we are at it, we had better nuke this global treaty nonsense that is designed to destroy our constitution and our nation as a super power….but I digress.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:45 am
It is always the young kids and jealous malcontents that want the “so called” rich to pay more than their fair share. These people then grow up, and (some of them) end up earning a decent living and get charged high tax rates. Boy do they whine then!
Well, we live in a capitalist country and that isn’t about to change for a very long time. Get used to it. Under a capitalist system, you have people who do better and worse than the norm. It’s called a system of incentives – whereby there is a big incentive to do well and succeed in life. No, there is nothing wrong with being successful.
If you don’t have those incentives, i.e. – people who earn more get taxes into the toilet, etc. – then things end up going nowhere. No one tries to do well – after all, there is no incentive. No one is there to hire you – they sit back and do nothing just like everyone else. Eventually everyone is sitting around doing nothing and the society goes broke.
Socialism has rarely survived in any reasonable form for a decent sized country for more than a short time. Eventually the incentive become corruption. Then you live in a place like China.
So please wake up, stop looking for a free lunch and have everyone else pay for what you don’t want to pay for. The well-off pay more than their fair share. If you were in their shoes, you would know it. But its easier to whine and say that certain people have it better than you do – and that they should be made to pay. Calm down – or you may end up in a long line just to buy bread.
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:46 pm
I agree with those who are saying if you want to make more money put the effort in. I grew up poor, was a teenage mother and decided I didn’t want to end up on welfare. I was raised to believe that public assistance was temporary and not a way of life. So I went to college, earned bachelors and masters degrees and a professional certification. I did all of this so that I could provide for myself and my child. I have worked very hard so yes, it iritates me, when socialists want to “redistribute” my wealth. I was held accountable for my actions (getting pregnant in high school) why shouldn’t other people be accountable for their actions and decisions?
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Screw the IRS thiefs…they steal our money to mess up the country even more
and since now the US has become a communist socialist evil country who is hungry for money to use to torwards wars, weapons and all that
I am getting ready to throw away my american citizenship and live elsewhere where people are not treated like criminals and a country who actually dont steal your hard earned money
December 4th, 2009 at 10:28 am
WOW, some people need to read how Rome fell. Taxing the rich and giving free rides to the poor is a system setup for failure. Why try to get rewards from hard work when it is taken away from you. I have come from eating out of dumpsters to fall into the 25% tax bracket. How about hard work and education?! It’s out there, go get it.
December 4th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Having these income tax brackets makes me want to work LESS, not more. My productivity is reduced, as is my desire to professionally excell, because as soon as I start to make just a little bit more money, my tax rate would jump from 15 to 25%. That’s ridiculous. Where’s the incentive to be productive? To work hard? To keep your money? Why on earth would I want to apply myself when the government will take an additional 10% of it? That would move me backward financially, which is exactly how our government thinks.
December 4th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
I am not sure that all of the tax rates in this site are correct? I thought the rates were going to go back to the place they were when Bush LOWERED them??? I thought the 25% rate was to go back to 28% Etc. Also I thought the 15% rate on Capital gains was to go back to 20%???? I hope you guys are right and you did your homework. I put in a new AC $5,500 and you would have to be a political Tax expert to figure out the new form 5695 “Residential Energy Credits”. I guess I will have to hire someone to do my taxes this year.
December 6th, 2009 at 1:10 am
You are correct about the rates going back to the pre-Bush tax cuts. That will occur in 2011. The rates are subject to change, though, based on whatever congress and the president determine.
Kinda warms your heart, don’t it?
December 6th, 2009 at 9:29 pm
I do agree that the jumps are a little much, and not be such a huge difference. The gap from making a little pif of money to just little bit more than that should not be that big, and the difference from making nothing to making the most should not be nearly as big as it is, and the difference’s should be way way smaller.
With that being said, if you make more money you should pay more in taxes. Everbody is not given the same opportunities. I’m in college working 80 hours a week most weeks, I work everyday and yet I still come to struggle when it comes time to make things work since the price of school keeps going up, and financial aid doesn’t cover my tuition, plus I have to buy books, and I have rent to pay plus a car and that insurance. I can’t get a loan because my parents refuse to co-sign, and the school wont give me any more money because my parents make to much money. I also have to pay more in taxes than many people because I have two jobs that I work at full time.
If you make more money then you have the luxury to many thing those of us who work harder just to get through school, many of the kids who go to school are not lazy, and need help to continue education to make more money because parent’s can’t always do it for them. Since many of those in lower income areas taking out more taxes will nto help them. If you are so worried that you money is getting taken because you make more money then stop spending money on things you don’t need, nobody needs to live in huge houses with personal showers and 6 bedroom, unless you have five kids, nobody needs 5 cars, and nobody needs movie theaters in their damn house. If you can afford things like these than you can afford to pay a little extra to those who are also working hard and many doing actual physical labor and not getting the money they should for the jobs that they do.
Notice those who have some of the most stressful jobs in the world (social workers, those who take care of those with disabilities, child care, etc.) get paid the least amount of money, and they should be getting paid a lot more for what they do, they wipe people’s butts, get things thrown at them, get yelled at all day, and get paid shit. People who work these jobs should get more money, and while they don’t get more money they shouldn’t have to pay as much in taxes, esp. since they do a lot more work than some of the really rich people out there who jus happen to be born into money.
We are not all given the same chances in life, we are not all given the same opportunities to make money to get wealthy, it’s not even close. Many people have to work the butts off just to make a little bit of money, and go into huge debt while trying to make it through college. Yet there are some people out there who get everything handed to them on a silver platter, they get the nice cars, go to the best schools at no cost to them all because their parents have money. When these people are done with school they have no debt to pay back and they probably still have a nice car to drive, and parents to pay their bills til they find a job.
My parents both work and make a very good living for themselves, but they don’t help me at all, I have to pay for everything I want, including school, a kinda of crappy car, and a place to live, they wont even cosign a loan for me to finish up school. Yes i know I have a greater chance after school of getting a better job and will have to pay more taxes then I do now, but I expect to have to pay more, I know what is coming, and I am ok with it because I know it’s coming, and I know it’s going to happen. If I ever make enough money to have to pay more in taxes, I will not bitch like all of you richer people now. Just be glad you are making enough money to support you family in a better way than those who can, be happy you made yourself successful.
So all you richer people out there, suck it up and pay it, although I would argue on your side that the difference shouldn’t be as large as it is at all.
December 8th, 2009 at 1:00 am
ASDF, I hope you understand that not being handed everything simply makes you stronger. Busting your butt and driving a “crappy car” will serve you better in the future. I know as I’ve been there. Don’t worry about the silver spoon folks. Most of them reveal their weaknesses and fail to excel.
It is quite interesting that some people are not in favor of oppressively high tax rates unless the tastes of those high earners include indulgences like “movie theaters in their damn house”. Have you ever considered that all of those indulgences create jobs in manufacturing, sales, installation, etc. This is America. At least for now you can spend your money the way you want. Who cares what the spend it on if they can afford it! Perhaps you would prefer a national sales tax instead of income tax.
Most everyone on this blog is focused on what is “fair”. Fair is far from being an absolute as it is perhaps the most subjective concept in history. That is why I have always said “Fair is where you take your pig to get a ribbon”.
Every nation has to decide what its priorities will be (what is fair). Conservative capitalists favor little government and low taxes. That formula has given us the greatest growth and wealth years in the history of the world. Naysayers, the moonbats of the left like Pelosi and company, believe big government is necessary because we Americans are just too stupid to make good decisions. They want to control everything about our lives and that takes big time tax collection, which of course, kills small business and therefore kills job creation. Of course, every program the government creates is an abysmal economic disaster. The best thing the federal government can do is ensure that we are militarily defended, then get the hell out of the way.
This is not rocket science. We must have low tax rates to increase disposable income and stimulation of the economy. We must have low taxes on small businesses to encourage the hiring of more workers.
Before you bash the rich, keep this in mind: No one ever got a job from a poor guy.
December 8th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
lolalarvale, a corporation that produces goods or services for sale to customers does not pay any taxes. When a corporation is charged a tax, that company simply includes it in the cost doing business and passes it on to its customers in the form on higher prices for its products. If they didn’t do this, they would not be able to stay in business.
Since these corporate taxes end up being added to the price of products provided by these companies, they are in fact a hidden sales tax. Since this tax is hidden in the price of the product, in many states customers end up paying additional sales tax on this hidden tax. Even if your state exempts food and prescription drugs from sales taxes, you still end up paying this hidden sales tax on food and drugs because the companies that produce them are not exempt from corporate taxes.
Corporate income taxes are nothing more than a cruel hoax perpetrated by dishonest politicians on ignorant voters in order to convince them that the “evil, rich corporations” are being forced to pay their share of the tax burden, when in fact, the public ends up paying those corporate taxes.
December 9th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Ok, I get it. Let’s penalize those that work their tails off and are successful by raising their tax rate. Then let’s give it to the those that don’t want to better themselves and get a free ride. Thanks Washington!
December 9th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Two more good reasons for the FairTax!
The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 296) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.
The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.
The FairTax:
Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Allows American products to compete fairly
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Abolishes the IRS
December 10th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
For more than a century it’s been generally recognized that the best taxes are progressive– that is, proportionate to income.
Lately, however, it’s become fashionable to question this. Republican leaders have trotted out the idea of a flat tax, meaning a fixed percentage of income tax levied on everyone. A single amount that everyone must pay.
Isn’t that more fair? Shouldn’t everyone pay the same amount?
In a word– no. It’s not more fair; it’s appallingly unfair. Why? The rich should pay more taxes, because the rich get more from the government.
Consider the defence bufget, for example. Defending the country benefits everyone, but it benefits the rich more, because they have more to defend. It’s the same principle as insurance: if you have a bigger house or a fancier car, you pay more to insure it.
Social security payments, which makes up another good chunk of the budget, are dependent on income– if you’ve put more into the system, you get higher payments when you retire.
Investments in the nation’s infrastructure– transportation, education, research & development, energy, police subsidies, the courts, etc.– again are more useful the more you have. The interstates and airports benefit interstate commerce and people who can travel, not ghetto dwellers. Energy is used disproportionately by the rich and by industry.
As for public education, the better public schools are the ones attended by the moderately well off. The very well off ship their offspring off to private schools; but it is their companies that benefit from a well-educated public. (If you don’t think that’s a benefit, go start up an engineering firm, or even a factory, in El Salvador. Or Watts.)
The FDIC and the S&L bailout obviously most benefit investors and large depositors. A neat example: a smooth operator bought a failing S&L for $350 million, then received $2 billion from the government to help resurrect it.
Beyond all this, the federal budget is top-heavy with corporate welfare. Counting tax breaks and expenditures, corporations and the rich snuffle up over $400 billion a year– compare that to the $1400 budget, or the $116 billion spent on programs for the poor.
Where’s all that money go? There’s direct subsidies to agribusiness ($18 billion a year), to export companies, to maritime shippers, and to various industries– airlines, nuclear power companies, timber companies, mining companies, automakers, drug companies. There’s billions of dollars in military waste and fraud. And there’s untold billions in tax credits, deductions, and loopholes. Accelerated depreciation alone, for instance, is estimated to cost the Treasury $37 billion a year– billions more than the mortgage interest deduction. (Which itself benefits the people with the biggest mortgages. But we should encourage home ownership, shouldn’t we? Well, Canada has no interest deduction, but has about the same rate of home ownership.)
For more, see Mark Zepezauer and Arthur Naiman’s informative little book, ‘Take the Rich Off Welfare’.
How about social spending? Well, putting aside the merely religious consideration that the richest nation on the planet can well afford to lob a few farthings at the hungry, I’d argue that it’s social spending– the New Deal– that’s kept this country capitalistic. Tempting as it is for the rich to take all the wealth of a country, it’s really not wise to leave the poor with no stake in the system, and every reason to agitate for imposing a new system of their own. Think of social spending as insurance against violent revolution– and again, like any insurance, it’s of most benefit to those with the biggest boodle.
A flat tax for all? These proposals need to be absorbed with a carload of salt.
A plan where everyone’s taxes are lowered is of course simply a tax cut. Here, once again, the question to ask as a voter and citizen is, what government services do you want to cut? You don’t hear proposing to slash corporate welfare or defense. It’s more likely a way to attempt to cut social spending through the back door. People like to hear about tax cuts; they don’t like to hear about service cuts, even though they’re financially equivalent.
A revenue-neutral plan won’t change total receipts any– it’ll just redistribute it. Here you have to ask, who gets shafted?
You can’t exactly make the poor pay more taxes– they don’t have the money. That leaves only one way to flatten the tax rates– that is, reduce the taxes the rich pay: soak the middle class. If tax rates go down on the rich, and we’re not cutting total taxes, the middle classes have to pay more.
So, others want the government, already pretty much a subsidiary of the large corporations, to be subsidized even more by the rest of us. About all I can say is, if the American people are stupid enough to swallow this, they deserve to pay for it.
This is pretty shameless, but it’s much of a piece with Republican practice in general. For years some nosy folks have been investigating what states pay the most to the federal government, and which states get the most benefits back. What a surprise: the biggest winners are the western and southern states that vote Republican; the biggest losers are the northeastern states that vote Democratic. Those who whine the most about taxes are those who suck the most from the public trough.
Some won’t be happy, I suppose, until they can reconstitute a truly medieval system, in which the nobles pay no taxes at all.
Exercises for the ‘Cry Me A River’ reader:
1. Write a rebuttal justifying the corporate subsidy of your choice, respecting the conservative principle that the tax system cannot be used for social engineering.
2. Write a homily, suitable for use in Sunday school, explaining why Jesus should have condemned the sheep who demeaned the poor by feeding and clothing them, and blessed the rich man for living in splendor while Lazarus suffered.
3. Take your favorite flat tax proposal and your last 1040, and have your acountant calculate how much money it will save you. Find the names of the five or six middle-class people who will have to make up that shortfall, and write them a nice thank-you note.
4.Compare the GNP with the rate of taxation over the last fifty years– e.g. the boom years of the ’50s with their 90% marginal tax rate– and practice explaining that high tax rates discourage investment until you can do it with a straight face.
December 11th, 2009 at 11:49 am
“because the rich get more from the government.”
I chuckled. How do you even respond to something like that?
Anyway, no one is arguing that the “rich” (love that term) shouldn’t pay more. Under a flat, progressive, sales whatever tax system, that would be the case.
What I think most responsible, productive Americans are upset about is that the goverment wastes hundreds of billions of dollars each year on leaches to the system that are undeserving of others charity. And in doing so, they create this “institutionalized” poverty and government dependence for tens of millions of Americans (and illegal aliens). The actual dollar amount is irrelevant. If they somehow taxed another 5 Trillion out of the “rich” they would just waste it with the only certainties being more poor and dependent and a larger government intruding in our lives.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
This is a follow up from the US Marine Private turned 33% who posted earlier in this thread.
To Oh Boo Hoo… Check your logic before you make assertions that don’t hold water.
“Consider the defence bufget, for example. Defending the country benefits everyone, but it benefits the rich more, because they have more to defend. It’s the same principle as insurance: if you have a bigger house or a fancier car, you pay more to insure it.”
- Since when is FREEDOM valued differently for any American? I served this country for 8 years and I can assure you that at no time during my service did I consider I was protecting “the rich” more then “those with less wealth”. Furthermore, I can assure you that IF our homeland was ever threatened directly via invasion, you would not find our military protecting the assets of “rich” over the assets of others. Instead, as The Marines have done for 234 years, we would be protecting the freedoms of EVERY AMERICAN as laid out in the Constitution and the ideals of our forefathers.
- Your insurance principal simply doesn’t hold water. While those with more expensive houses & cars do pay more for Insurance in actual dollar values the percentile they pay relative to the value of their asset IS THE SAME for everyone with a policy from that company in that geographic market.
“Social security payments, which makes up another good chunk of the budget, are dependent on income– if you’ve put more into the system, you get higher payments when you retire.”
- Again, your argument doesn’t hold weight as a comparison to the current progressive income tax system. Every American is taxed an equal percentage up to the current limits of the Social Security system. While that may result in a different dollar contribution, the bottom line is the percentage is the same. The payments from Social Security are again equally proportionate to the amount paid into the system based on lifetime contributions from the SAME Social Security tax rate for every American.
“Energy is used disproportionately by the rich and by industry. ”
- Once again, you mistakenly try to illustrate that additional consumption equates to a justification to tax “the rich” disproportionally. Energy is charges to every American at the SAME RATE based on their location. The more you use, the more you pay. The power company doesn’t require W-2’s from residents to determine what to charge them based on a progressive scale per kilowatt hour.
Bottom line, your examples reflect nothing more then a variability in the actual dollar amounts paid by those that have more wealth compared to those that have less. In each of your examples however the “percentile of liability” is EQUAL across the spectrum of income. Conversely, and the point of my original post is that our current personal Income Tax system is unfair since it disproportionately taxes higher income Americans relative to those with less wealth thereby creating a disincentive to live the AMERICAN DREAM! You examples even further prove through various situations where a proportionate liability is fair such as a flat consumption tax similar to the Fairtax. Higher income earners are still taxed more in dollar figures because they generally consume more but there is no additional liability or should I say penalty for excuse the term, “getting off your butt and doing something with your life” (aka Living the American Dream!).
December 14th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
If this blog is going to continue, it must remain civil. I am a capitalist through and through, but I stand by the rights of others to speak their minds. If we are not tolerant of other views, then we are just as bad as the dictators that our President admires. Indeed these are incredibly difficult times, the times our forefathers have said “try men’s souls”. The least we as citizens can do is avoid stooping to the low brow tactics of Mr. Frank, Mr. Ayers, Mr. Soros and Ms. Pelosi amongst others.
If you really want to do something about the liberal takeover of our country, then contact your congressmen. If you don’t know how, go to http://www.grassfire.org and join the movement to take back our freedom while it still exists. Otherwise you are just flagellating in the breeze.
As for taxes, the current tax system is about as fair as any we have seen in this country. If the rates are simply left as they are, we can live with them. The trouble is, we are being led by irresponsible spenders on both sides of the aisle. Time to extricate the irresponsible big government proponents and find some true small government thinkers who can pay the bills with the taxes we already pay.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Interesting debate. Those objecting to the idea of a flat tax, understand that there are many examples of how to do this, and some of them actually revolve around a consumption tax, rather than based purely on income.
It is quite simple to add a touch of progressive taxation to a flat tax, by not taxing expenses for primary residence, as an example (this would be an improvement over our current “progressive” tax system).
One of the central problems with our current system is the fact that your income doesn’t take into account the context in which you live. Living in Los Angeles, it’s impossible to find a two bedroom for under around $1500 (unless you want to live in a location that puts your family in danger). The same apartment in the Chicago suburbs I can get for $1000. If I lived in Iowa City? Significantly less than that. But if I’m making $50K, the federal government will tax me the same in any of those locations. That’s patently unfair, as the person living in Iowa City is indeed making an excellent living, whereas the same person making that in Los Angeles will be scraping by.
December 18th, 2009 at 9:16 am
I’ve never hated a president as much as I hate the piece of garbage in office right now. What happened to the “your taxes won’t go up if you make under $250,000 as an individual”?! What an effing liar…LIAR LIAR LIAR. So not only are our taxes going up, our deductions have NO CHANGE.
December 21st, 2009 at 1:38 am
The “Right” still wants its Medicare and SS, and its world empire. The “Left” wants it all. The Libertarian Party might save us, but methinks Armageddon and austerity for All Americans will come first. The Light will come, but not before we have seen the Depths of Hell.
December 22nd, 2009 at 8:13 am
If you think it is bad this year, come back NEXT year!
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:22 am
If you have a flat tax then the GOVERNMENT will have to spend what they get then they could’t BLOW all that money, live week to week like us!
December 22nd, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I don’t have any answers, just opinions.
My husband and I work hard at our full-time jobs, but we still do not make alot of money. Our educations allow for better wages, but with the job market what it is we consider ourselves lucky to have A job, and have accepted the pay cuts as a small price to pay for having ANY job. We will probably fall in the 15% tax bracket, which is not bad, we will survive it.
And Really, I don’t care what other people make or pay. I’m doing my share and I just wish everyone else was too. Too many people are in our country that are not here legally and are burdening the system (I do not forget those that are here legally and are also burdens to the system). If everyone pulled their weight, whatever amount it was, this situation would not be as disportionate as it seems.
December 22nd, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Gwen, you are a communist.
December 22nd, 2009 at 5:08 pm
All comments interesting. I talked to a Canadian couple who pay 51% in taxes. They mentioned this nonchalantly…..kind of like the frog in boiling water! Yes, even we can become accustomed to being ’screwed’, and think there is no other way. By the way, this couple paid extra money for private health care when needed!! If I remember correctly, wasn’t there some big uproar in the 18th century in this country about “taxation without representation”? Certainly there is no constituent representation now (health care reform an example), so why do citizens continue to go along with increasing taxes; federal, state, local? These folks who say it’s OK to tax those with money don’t have a clue. All have to be government workers, don’t you think? We are indeed sheep who get what we deserve, unless we get rid of the leeches in D.C. and start over.
December 24th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Many of our ills would go away if prudence were the policy of the day. If I ruled the USA, for starters I would:
(1) Return politics to a service industry with a ten year total onetime limit overall; the public would determine what a livable stipend would be for the period
(2) Strip away all airline, farm, auto etc. business subsidies & bailouts
(3) Make all politicians abide by the same health care/pension/social security/tax policies by which all other Americans live
(4) Stop awarding citizenship to every living being who happens to breathe American air on the day of birth
(5) Boot out all illegals (kids born here go with their illegal parents) with a comprehensive national sweep, coupled with generating a truly thoughtful immigration policy geared toward true need; only illegals serving in the military on our behalf would get amnesty, humanitarian [dire medical] cases would be reviewed for temporary stay considerations
(6) Stop all govt support of ‘making things fair or equal’ programs so charities can take up the slack
(7) Dump the idiot now in the WH who has a G-D complex and cannot get enough of himself so he shares himself 24 hours a day with all of us, and replace with a true patriotic leader who feels the USA is surely the greatest nation on earth, remembers how it got that way and preserves it without changing its underlying foundations–and without apologizing to the world for our existence and successes
(8) First and foremost, support our military
(9) Add line item veto power to the executive office
(10) Create elections focused on issues and not on candidates – no individual campaigning allowed, no donations – no 2-party system which has devolved into failure
(11) Benefits including but not limited to health, pensions, vacations, holidays or bonuses for public sector jobs at every level to be set by the taxpayers
JUST A START…
December 25th, 2009 at 8:14 am
I have read this page this early morning of Christmas, and I understand both sides
of this debate. My sister, who worked hard in school, put herself though college and
found a great job makeing 100k or more is part of the *rich* people everyone is fussing about here.
Me, on the other hand, got an education and work in a factory in my town, making
around 30k a year.
This does not mean I think my sister, who wanted more out of life, should pay for me,
or that she should pay for my healthcare or all the other things the goverment is going
after the *rich* for supposely.
I work, I pay my own way, and that makes me proud.
I dont agree that those people who sit around and say to the goverment give me give me, and the goverment is more then happy to provide for them. That is what makes me mos upset.
I know in this econmy there are those out of work, not by choice, and those are not who I speak of. I speak of the welfare generations of familys, who, that is their JOB.
I agree with z-man on the start all over theory….only, I figure by the time they get
into office, there has been so much backscrathing, that whatever good intention they
had…….is covered up by *You owe Me*
I am not sure of the solution, to the problem, but I am pretty sure it is not socialism..
thanks for listening
December 27th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
My friend you are not rich man government is not your friend. Do you contribute money in their campaign? If president, house of rep and senate think like you think we do not have problem every body in U.S.A is happy. We trust two face people and elect them. They don’t care for you they only care for their pocket
December 28th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
I am interested in seeing last year aggragate taxes paid by each income level. I am thinking the rich don’t actually live pay check to pay check and can afford to manage their money in ways that take advantage of the books and books and tax code or potential write-offs. What percentage of total income, before any write-offs or deductions did each segment pay in taxes on average?
December 28th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
Got news for you, Dustin. There are no tax breaks for high income earners, unless you count our government officials who just don’t pay their taxes. It seems you can’t swing a dead cat in D.C. without hitting an elected official who should be in prison for tax evasion. We usually find out who they are when they are vying for an appointment by the White House.
As far as your run of the mill high income earner is concerned, it is impossible to get a “write-off” as the ‘Alternative Minimum Tax’ kicks in for everyone who attempts to claim large deductions. The AMT negates any deductions that lower ones tax bill below a certain level.
For example, a wage earner making say $550,000 is going to pay about $165,000+ in Federal taxes alone. He can’t get out of it because the AMT cancels out deductions, and the exemptions for dependents go away with increases in income. That is roughly 30% of his gross income. On average, state taxes will equal about $33,000. Then there is FICA and medicare tax totaling about $18000. That comes to about $216,000 in just Fed/FICA/Medicare/State income taxes. That comes in at 40% of his gross income.
Whether a person lives pay check to pay check is a function of lifestyle, not income. Most everyone in this country spends more as they make more. One reason we are in the national economic pickle we are in is that the people have followed the government’s lead in spending MORE than what is earned/collected. So, pay check to pay check? That is a personal choice. Not a good one, but a choice nonetheless.
I know that many folks look at the above example and say: Wow. That leaves a whopping $330,000 to spend. Sure enough. And that is as good as it will get, and the party is over. Under Obama’s/Liberals’ Plan, The $550,000 earner’s total tax (F/F/M/S) will likely top out at around $300,000 or 56% in taxes. Now isn’t that one hell of an incentive for people to work hard? Who wants to bust his tail to get to this high income level only to keep 44% percent of it?
Kill the individual with taxes and you kill the country. That is EXACTLY what Obama and his robotic followers will do unless they are stopped.
December 29th, 2009 at 2:18 am
Responding to Dustin, a person making $195k per year, with 25k in deductions (mostly charity) pays over $40,000 in Federal Tax….which equates to 25%.
He is correct that a person who makes this type of annual wage should not have to live paycheck to paycheck. Only by poor money management or bad decisions should this occur. However, those who don’t make this much money don’t pay 25% of every extra dollar they make, and those who make significantly more pay an increased percentage in tax, according to the system we now have, and unfortunately, we will all pay more to fund this Administration’s proposed programs.
In this particular example, there is a significant amount given to others (charities) that demonstrates a degree of generosity. Some who make far less give even a larger percentage of their income to charitible organizations, which shows not just a greater desire to help their fellow man, but perhaps even better money management skills and not living beyond their means. It may not be germane to this issue, but our current President gave less than $100 to help his fellow man.
I personally believe living “beyond one’s means” is the major problem many have. Failure to save, failure to manage money, failure to put one’s life in proper perspective regarding age and occupational volatility, seems to me to lead to a “class envy” or “coveting” attitude. I see this first hand in the Health Reform issue. I spent 27 years in the military, many years flying off aircraft carriers. I signed a contract with the U.S. Government to do so, and risked my life, sacrificed time away from family, and made less money than my peers. I did so because I felt a calling to it, and I did so knowing that if I made it to retirement age, I would be compensated with a small retirement and a good health care program. The government knew it wasn’t paying what I was worth, and they gave the health care in old age as a carrot. I tell you this because a relative of mine recently said that she deserved the same government health care I receive because she worked 11 years as a teacher. Where is her equity? She never spent 9 months each deployment away from her spouse and children, never hurled her body at the back end of a carrier at night, and never was shot at. People make career choices, which equate to consequences, at many junctures during life. I don’t belittle anyone who makes more money than I do, nor do I feel superior to someone who makes less. Our lives reflect the choices we make, in all aspects. And, regarding Health Care, it does need reform, but not in the manner thus proposed. My opinion.
Our tax system is progressive. Those who make more pay more. I personally feel a flat tax, with no loopholes, is a better means to finance our government. But the downturn in the economy has shown the true colors of the newest generation that have had to weather an economic storm. Many want to have someone else pay for their education, their home, and pay their bills. This was not the mindset a generation or two ago. By the way, I also run my own business. And if the Health Care Reform bill and Cap and Trade bills go as the Democrats envision, I will close my business doors. More jobs lost. There are basic business and economic principles that have been in place since bartering and the invention of coinage, and it is too bad this Administration does not understand them. This Administration has the lowest percentage (8%) of any administration in the history of our nation to have actually worked in the private sector. Too bad America. I can’t help but think the recent upturn in the economy would have happened sooner if left alone to correct itself. Certainly the billions in the Stimulus Package weren’t a catalyst. It’s time to wake up folks, and it may be too late.
December 30th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Nothing like taxes to generate responses short, long and passionate.
The big point that’s missing in most of this is the Constitution. Not surprising since few of our elected officials have read it to any detail.
The Constitution allows for the taxation of profit as associated with an enterprise or business. It has long been debated as to whether the Federal Income Tax is constitutional as it relates to personal income. Years of influence from big business and big industries (like Wall Street and Higher Education) have distorted the tax system and made a bad situation worse.
If anyone has seen Aaron Russo’s “America – Freedom To Fascism,” know what I’m talking about. And those who haven’t can contact me and I’ll send you a copy.
For those who are making $50K and paying 38% in taxes, it means you’re living in a City and State that is taxing you at over 13% or your employer is withholding too much. If they’re withholding too much you’re getting a decent refund. You can adjust your W-4 or move, if possible.
College can be a wonderful thing but the cost of it can be equally obscene. With Government pushing and promoting higher education for everyone and subsidizing loans, it has become a huge industry. Ultimately financed on the backs of those who can afford it the least. Graduates who pay their students loans are paying a higher interest to cover the cost of the lender for making loans to people who don’t pay them back. Does having a 6 figure debt to get a 5 figure job make a lot of sense? Then again we have elected officials who spend 7 figures to get a 6 figure job. But their “job” comes with benefits the majority of college graduated will never see.
Yes, it is a vicious cycle that is worthy of a “start over” consideration. But the Lehman/Bear Sterns fiasco represented the best opportunity for someone to say “This system might not be working” and it didn’t happen. We are a long way from changing things but it starts with us at the voting booth.
Keep voting out all incumbents, even the good ones. They can come back and get re-elected but we, the general population, need to send a message to the elected officials and that’s the only way I can think of getting their attention.
Having a revolving door in Congress will make the Lobbyists head spin. They won’t know who to go after since they’ll only be there for for a short time. No more career politicians in Congress for 30, 40 and 50 years or more. Once the power of the vote has been establish there might be some progress for the middle class. Lets hope there still is a middle class by the time that happens.
Happy New Year, everyone.
December 30th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Josh for president!
December 30th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I just checked and the top 5% of earners pay 60% of the income taxes. It seems fair enough. There is no easy solution as I believe people working smart and hard earn the right to their reward. I also sympathize with those less fortunate and am fine paying a higher level of taxes, thus I do not have a problem paying 28% on my final earnings. When my deductions start getting phased out, it starts to hit a little hard. Already 1/3 of my income goes to taxes and social security.
The real solution is to run the government more like business. The pork barrel projects to which Congress treats itself and government waste and entitlements are the real problem. Less spending is the answer, not taxing people up to half of their income. When tax rates reached higher levels historically, the economy stagnated as investment did as well.
December 30th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
This appears to be the perfect time to introduce the Congressional Reform Act of 2010. It is a reproduction of an email I received this week from a very thoughtful citizen.
1. Term Limits: 12 years only, one of the possible options below.
A. Two Six year Senate terms
B. Six Two year House terms
C. One Six year Senate term and three Two Year House terms
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
2. No Tenure / No Pension:
A congressman collects a salary while in office and receives no pay when they are out of office.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
3. Congress (past, present & future) participates in Social Security:
All funds in the Congressional retirement fund moves to the Social Security system immediately. All future funds flow into the Social Security system, Congress participates with the American people.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, server your term(s), then go home and back to work.
4. Congress can purchase their own retirement plan just as all Americans.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
5. Congress will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Congressional pay will rise by the lower of CPI or 3%.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
6. Congress loses their current health care system and participates in the same health care system as the American people.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
7. Congress must equally abide in all laws they impose on the American people.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
8. All contracts with past and present congressmen are void effective 1/1/11.
The American people did not make this contract with congressmen, congressmen made all these contracts for themselves.
Serving in Congress is an honor, not a career. The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, serve your term(s), then go home and back to work.
———————–
I could not agree more. Get the foxes out of the hen house and take away their key!
December 30th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
To cogipro – With all due respect that seems more of the same. Letting Government/Legialation take care of the problem.
I would prefer to return power to the people and have them implement the term limits every November.
Any legislation involving term limits would probably be lined with golden parachutes.
And we might even raise the level of awareness of our fellow voters.
December 31st, 2009 at 9:54 am
Thanks Joe. Between you , me and my closest family and friends I only need another 60,000,000 votes or so. It’s a start though!
December 31st, 2009 at 2:41 pm
I am sick from reading the posts from the liberal socialists. I went to law school and work for a non-profit. I want to do good for this world, so my income is greatly sacrificed. I won’t last much longer at my current job. Day in and day out, I see clients , who get my legal services for FREE, complain about how bad they have it. They rarely accept personal responisibility for their situation.
99% of the people in this country are where they are because of their own life choices. And don’t give me your psycho babble about your happy wife and kids – I have those too – but that doesn’t change the fact that I am an extremely angry person who no longer wants to give back to the general public. I mostly see people who don’t accept responsibility for their choices and then get angry/upset/etc (and I am supposed to “understand and empathize”) when they learn that the government won’t give them more money!!! I am happy with my personal life, but extraordinarily worried about more money being taken from my already small paycheck to give to people that refuse to take responsibility for themselves or take action to correct their own self-created misfortune.
If you don’t have money, it is very likely your own fault. There is only a very small percentage of people who don’t have money through no fault of their own (those born with disabilities….but most of those aren’t complaining, they are in state institutions that need the money MUCH MORE than YOU DO….but don’t worry, I know that you are greedy and won’t give it to them).
You probably lack responsibility in your personal spending and lack drive and determination at your job. That is why you are poor!
No person in this country deserves anything more than roads, police, military, a court system, and general laws for all to abide by. Essentially, you start with nothing, but in this country, you have the opportunity to do anything. If you want a free ride where someone tells you what to do and you put no effort into developing yourself, move to China, Cuba or any similar nation…..see you much better you are treated!
December 31st, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Has anybody but me noticed the new payroll withholding rates have gone UP?!! For the last several years, I have been in a 25% marginal bracket. If you look at the 2010 IRS Publication 15, I will be (same salary) in a 27% bracket. Why is nobody reporting this?
January 1st, 2010 at 6:00 pm
MarkA – It seems the Pub 15 tables are a little squirrely with the %’s going 25 to 27 to 30 then back to 28 and then to 33. Might be our friends way to improve their cash flow while debating the outcome the expiring tax cuts from 10 years ago. Should be interesting.
Bottom line is the income tax rates haven’t changed so as long as you file your return you shouldn’t have to pay any more than what the tax tables say. You could amend your W-4 to offset Pub 15.
January 1st, 2010 at 6:12 pm
A new year but no shortage of hypocrisy and BS.
Capitalist Pig – Working for a paycheck doesn’t make you a Capitalist. Share with us you definition of a Capitalist that prompted you to assume you are one.
No one has a choice when it comes to paying their SS taxes, the employer is forced to withhold it.
You don’t have a problem with SS taxes as long as “I can live off you.” Nice.
And as far as a financial collapse, see 2008. If you think your so called “commies” were the cause if it, do further research and step away from the cool aid bar.
You may be more of a commie than those you accuse.
January 1st, 2010 at 6:14 pm
cogipro – You are an example of what makes this a great country and the world a better place to live. Keep up the great work.
For 2010, I hope your spirit inspires many, myself included, to do more and/or do better.
Happy New Year!
January 3rd, 2010 at 12:18 pm
On Dec24, 2009, The United States of American began its death spiral and a new country emerged. The United Socialist States of America. Yes, we have been fundamentally changed. The single largest legislation that will effect all people in this country was written in secret, passed without being read and debated before the American people, by a single party. Anything can be passed now! Card check, legalized strong arming by the unions, cap and trade, regulation of anything left in life that the Government doesn’t already control. Soon, Americans will be told which Dr. they can go to and what health care they can have. If you are over 60 or retired, you are dead meat, if you have a birth defect and connot contribute to the tax coffers of the Democratic Central Committee, you are dead meat. Those of you in school will be told what and where you can work…Yes, as Newsweek said, We are now, All Socialists! The days of free and open debate are gone, the days of the right to vote are gone, and the right to live free to make the choices you want are gone. My life is coming to end, and I will escape the horrible times that are ahead. My children and grandchildren will have to deal with it. I only pray that they are strong enough in thier character to endure and survive……
January 4th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
We can not tax the corporations more, they will just head to mexico labor. We need to tax the rich, we need to tax their salaries so much, THAT IT CURBS THEIR GREED, if they knew they would lose 65% to taxes, they wouldn’t be so greedy. Anyone making over $500.000 a year needs to be taxes at 65% over that amount. We need a law that eliminates any type of government retirement benifits, no medicare, or SS for any CEO who ships jobs out of this country, to make a buck on cheaper labor. Maybe we should even take away their citizenship, and make them live in those other countries. Why is California so broke with all their millionaires, because the millionaires want this, and that, they want their childrens schools to have the best, they want their town to look gorgeous, they want nice roads, they want private roads the general public can’t use as a shortcut, to get around traffic, fancy street lights, and all those extra’s cost money. If they don’t pay their share of taxes, the government goes broke trying to meet their desires. We have to heavily tax the wealthy to curb their greed.
January 4th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
I’m rather amazed at the number of comments here promoting a return to accountabiliy, responsibilty and self-reliance. Usually topics of this sort get immediately drowned out by hundreds of Leftists demanding this and that. Encouraging to see this type of dialogue.
I guess I shouldnt be too surprised though. If you are posting on this blog page it was because you were concerned about how much you would be paying in taxes in 2010. Since the vast majority of Leftists dont pay taxes, I dont think they really care what the 2010 rates are.
Even so, I will attempt to delude myself into thinking that mayebe the electorate in this country is changing and we may start to hold our government officials accountable. Sure would be nice to see a collective “Enough is Enough!” next November…..
January 4th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Yikes, what a diverse level of commentary.
While I agree that this country is heading in a bad direction, I don’t agree that it is a recent turn. What is going has been going on for almost 100 years. With both sides adding gasoline to the fire. Yet some see it as Red versus Blue. I see them as all Purple Barneys, playing the general public (voters) as patsies and bribing them with their own tax dollars to get their vote.
It leads to passionate commentary, like some of the posts here. We should try to stay clear of the name calling and hysteria. There are enough legitimate factual problems without having to contrive ones.
Neighbor – Check the US Constitution before you give the Corporations a free pass.
January 4th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
If you haven’t read or heard about today, the new health care reform mandates will administered by the IRS…….can no one see what is really going on here!!!!!! It is not about taxes!!!!! It is about a ruling class and a working class, you have be one or the other, or you have no place in the “New World order”. I suggust you take another read of 1984 and Farenheit 451, as well as many of the contemporary books on the subject of this administration……..
January 4th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
War, stimulates economies. If the war ended tomorrow, where would all those servicemen, and women work? What jobs would be available? Was the real purpose of the war to stimulate the economy, and make things look better than what they really were? Is what they told us the real story? Could it be is was really a oil war? Was this all a set up leading up to higher oil prices? Who would benefit from higher oil prices? Was the 401k national retirement plan to replace Social Security, the next step to milking us out of our money. The natural reaction when your funds start losing money is to pull out, but then someone else steps in, buys low, and reaps the profit, of those who pulled out when the market started to tank. I’ll tell you if you were an oil guy, and made all that money on the oil increase of 2007, then took that profit, and rolled it into the stock market when it bottomed out in march 2009, you would be a very rich person today. Thats exactly why you should pay 65% taxes on all that money you made!
January 4th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Hey Neighbor
Do what I did, get yourself an address in low tax Nevada and keep your Ca. home too.. Let someone else pay for the schools, roads and fancy lights.
January 4th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
Isn’t it obvious to the American Proletarians that the really rich people in this country don’t pay taxes? Maybe to someone making $30k, $300,000 seems like a lot of money. Doesn’t it just burn you up that someone is driving in a new BMW while you slave away in your old Honda? Poor babies!
Get a grip people! The very rich spend millions to make sure tax laws are passed to protect their billions. Like George Carlin said, “it’s one big club, and you ain’t in it!”
We’re all a bunch of suckers. This whole joke of an economy will be coming down soon. Good riddance, say I.
January 5th, 2010 at 11:01 am
Neighbor:
I hesitate to try and logically respond to your rant. Because, with all due respect, you don’t really seem to be one who is grounded in logic. You seem more like a Daily Kos/Keith Oberman disciple. But I’ll give it a shot anyway…
1) You seem really upset that Bush tried to give us Private Account options instead of the straight Social Security government pyramid scam. Here’s a tidbit you probably haven’t heard. Someone retiring today after working ~45 years gets…what… $23,000 a year in SS? Do you know that if that person had put all of his SS taxes into the S&P Index he would get over $125,000 PER YEAR today. And thats after the crashes of 2001 and 2008. Yes, choice and ownership (and Capitalism too I guess) are horrible things. I would much rather “own” my retirement funds then “hope” that the government will be solvent enough to pay me the $23k a year when I retire. And make no mistake about, this government is heading to bankruptcy. Oh wait, I forgot, the money is sitting in a “lockbox”
2) Blood for Oil, etc, etc. Again, really hard to respond to this one because it is so ludicrous. But for this argument to hold true, you and your ilk would truly have to believe in your heart of hearts that Bush started two wars in the Middle East (and probably faked the 9/11 attacks), put hundreds of thousands of troops in harms way and risked his entire presidential legacy, because he wanted a small group of his friends in some dark smoky room to be able to make millions of dollars on Oil futures contracts? If you do beleive that, I obviously cant change your mind.
3) “Why did all those greedy loan processors tell people they could afford those ridiculously huge mortgages, based on their low pay”
God, I wish I had time to write 5 pages on this one. A very complicated subject but I can sum up the entire cause of the Mortgage/Housing bubble/collapse in 2 words. Fanny and Freddy (those are government agencies if you didnt know). We’ve had Sub Prime mortgages and those stupid EOC laws “encouraging” lenders to make loans to minorities/poor people for decades (started with Carter). But banks aren’t stupid. They found ways to avoid making those EOC loans. EOC went short of holding a gun to banks heads and forcing them to write bad loans. But in 1995 something changed. The Clinton Administartion changed the Freddy and Fanny ruls to allow “the government” to purchase Sub Prime mortgages on the secondary Market. All of a sudden, if a bank wrote a horrible loan to someone who couldnt afford it, they didnt need to worry about whether they ever paid it back. They could just write the loan, lock in the UW fee, and then turn around the next day and sell that horrible loan to YOU AND ME, the TAXPAYER! It was a license to print money. No risk, all reward! The goverment thought it would be a good thing if the poor and minorities “owned” (lol) homes they couldnt afford. So they bought every one of those damn mortgages. Long story short the pyramid scheme worked fine for about 12 years as home prices rose the banks could just sell foreclosed properties for a profit. When home prices went down….POP!
I know you had some more points, but it’s too tiring to respond to them all. Maybe later.
January 5th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Seems everyone has to have a bogeyman to be afraid of or blame, reminds me of Hitler.
Neighbor – It’s not that anyone needs to make more than $500,000 a year. It’s the fact that in a free and open society you should be allowed to, within the rules and regulations, of course.
Josh – Your numbers don’t jibe. Don’t take the 11%+ “average rate of return” for the S&P 500 over the past 65 years as a straight line return. The S&P lost 37% in ‘08. To break even one would have to earn 58%+ in ‘09. That’s a net of over 21%, or an “average” return of over 10% for ‘08 & ‘09. Yet all you did was breakeven. There’s no way you would have over $125,000 per year to live on. Average salary back then was about $2,000 and the SS withholding was not the 6.2% that it is today. And the “return” includes capital gains, while income you can live on has to come from dividends alone if you want your principal to stay the same. Bush’s plan to turn SS to equity accounts was a big pile of money to Wall Street. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/interviews/bogle.html
As for the mortgage mess. Blame whomever you want but Fannie was under investigation from 2003 – 2006. During that time, Fannie and Freddie went from having 70% of the securitization market to 30%. Someone had to pick up the slack. The Bear Sterns, Lehman’s and Goldman’s of the world, the so called “Secondary Market,” all had their own Sub-Prime shops. Who do you think picked up the slack while Fannie was under investigation?
You want to make this a Dem/Blue vs. Rep/Red thing, be careful. The Reds controlled Congress in ‘03. As I said before, they’re all Purple Barneys to me.
As for wars…bet you think WWII was about Pearl Harbor.
January 6th, 2010 at 2:28 am
OK well I may be only 23 and may not know anything. But I am a Soldier and have been for 5years now. I hate complaining. I hate peple that whine about everything. We aren’t paid very well and I am not going to b!tch about the rich getting Taxed so much. Personally, I think we should all be treated equally. You have people on here talking about they should be paying more taxing because they make more. No thats not true. They are successfull and you are not. You are a lazy bum who choses to live on unemployment.
January 6th, 2010 at 2:47 am
Federal tax is just a small part of your overall taxes… Consider State taxes, sales taxes, FICA (7.5% you + 7.5% your employer), medicare, car taxes and yearly license fees, property taxes, all sorts of fees, fees and taxes on your phone bill. It is endless.
If you were to look up statistics I would guess that for every dollar you make about 60% is taken from you when you look at the big picture.
The federal gov’t is heading for its third bankruptcy and perhaps its last. The banks and big business are already running the country anyway with gov’t officials as their front men. Don’t fool yourself there is no difference between the two main parties. An illusion of having a choice when there in none.
January 6th, 2010 at 6:03 am
Stop bitching about wealthy people paying less taxes and get off your lazy ass and work instead of complaining about how many yachts they buy. I’m 25 with a 140k salary and buy no means am I wealthy. I still have a beat up old car and trying to save for a home in which i cant qualify for because of the stupid individuals in the mortgage industry giving loans out to people for 2 million dollar homes with incomes of 20k. Its you lazy slobs that bring down this economy and want a hand out from the people that drive this economy.
If you want better health-care get a better job and pay for it if you want nicer clothes get a better job and pay for it. Are you catching the overall theme here that says if you want better things you need to work for it instead of expecting it from your ridiculous so called government. Ever notice your government figure heads are buying 5 million dollar homes in every state and there salary’s are only 200k. Also why does the president need a 400k salary 50k annual expense account 100k non taxable travel expense and 19k for entertainment…. strange isn’t it???? WORK YOU LAZY PEOPLE!!! THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILD BY HARD WORKERS NOT LAZY SLOBS THAT WANT HANDOUTS FROM EVERYONE!!!!!
January 6th, 2010 at 11:39 am
An exerpt from my future Inaugural Address:
America is the greatest country that the world has ever known. It is great for many reasons. The Liberty that it enjoys at home and then fought to bring to the rest of the world. The opportunity it provides to all citizens, regardless of race, religion or class. Its seemingly endless supply of compassion and charity for those less fortunate. However, it is in this last regard that America has recently been failing. We are not providing the level of care and assistance that we should to those that truly need and deserve it. Why? We have decided to take the easy approach and simply hand out the taxpayers’ money to whoever asks for it, regardless of circumstance. As a result, we have greatly diminished our ability to make a positive impact on the lives of the people that need our help the most. The people who have played by the rules, made good decisions in their lives, embraced hard work and personal responsibility and yet still face obstacles in their life which they cannot overcome without our assistance. The man who worked in a plant for 20 years before it closed and sees no other opportunities. The parents working 2 jobs but still can’t keep up with the medical bills for their sick child. The legal immigrant striving to learn English so she can get a good job and provide a better life for her family. These are the people that America has failed.
I propose that this willful neglect end today. I propose that we cut in half the annual spending on Social Programs and at the same time we double the assistance given to the 25% of those that truly need it. What will happen to the other 75%? The drug addicts will get clean. The criminals will be rehabilitated. The illegal immigrants will go home. The lazy will get jobs. The uneducated will go back to school. The unskilled will learn a trade. In short, they will start to be held accountable for their own actions. They will quickly develop a strong sense of personal responsibility. They will break the vicious cycle of poverty and never ending dependence on others. Now they will not become the “middle class†overnight. History has proven that you cannot create prosperity by waving a magic wand and taking from some to give to others. In fact, they may never become middle class in their lifetimes. But their children will. Their children will learn from their mistakes. They will be instilled with their new sense of hard work and self-reliance. Their grandchildren may become the upper-middle class or even “the wealthyâ€. And at that time they will struggle with the realization that their hard work and generosity supports this wonderful country, and in return for that support they receive not thanks but instead disdain and ridicule.
We will take these savings and others and reduce government spending by $500B per year. Yet, even at that astonishing rate, it will still take a generation to eliminate the national debt. But if America is ever going to achieve greatness again, this is a goal that we must achieve. We must not continue to send hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to foreign governments and banks because we lacked the political courage to make the hard fiscal decisions. It is a national imperative to break this vicious cycle. Just as John Kennedy challenged us to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade, I am challenging America to eliminate the national debt within 20 years. Your children and your country will thank you.
By eliminating wasteful spending and the national debt, America will enjoy an annual surplus approaching a trillion dollars. Imagine the opportunities this will create for us. America will once again have the flexibility and capital necessary to invest in our future, rather than paying for the sins of our past. The savings can be reinvested into energy independence, education and perhaps most importantly, reducing the tax burden on the American people and spurring our economy on to new heights. America can once again become an inspiration to the rest of the world instead of a punch-line. We can show the world how a robust, free-market economy can provide freedom, opportunity and prosperity to all. Let us learn from our history and recognize how America became the greatest country in the world in less than 200 years of existence. Let us once again embrace the economic freedom and spirit of entrepreneurship that turned 13 break-away British colonies into a beacon of hope and inspiration for the rest of the world. Let us recognize that history has proven time and again that Socialism is merely a path to mediocrity and obscurity for once great and proud nations. Finally, let us return to the path that our Founding Fathers set us upon. America has known greatness in the past, and with your help, we will return it to greatness once again.
January 6th, 2010 at 11:44 pm
The looters and moochers who whine about “the rich” also forget that most taxes don’t tax wealth, they tax income. If I was worth $10 million and kept the money in a non-interest bearing account, my income would be zero. I would owe no taxes. No, the income tax punishes people who are *trying* to become rich.
I’m working my ass off with a full time job and renting out my investment properties to losers that won’t pay their rent so I can retire early. But the damn government comes along and steals most of what I have left after my bills.
Yet people who spend all their money on DVD’s, flat screen TV’s, iPhones, and flashy cars, then get in debt to their eyeballs to buy more whine that they can’t “afford” health insurance and point to me to pay for it. (You’re “rich”… you have rental properties.)
Yeah, I’m pissed. I think the producers need to go on strike like in Atlas Shrugged.
January 7th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
So, wouldn’t a consumption tax be the most equitable method of paying to live in this great country. If you buy more, you pay more, and conversely if you buy less you pay less. Those who aren’t paying any tax or less than they owe would end up paying more of their fair share, i.e. people engaged in illegal activities who don’t report that money to the IRS, people who can shelter most of their income or people who are just dishonest when they file their taxes,
A parting shot… for a rule of thumb regarding a government solution to social and economic issues; “Anything you subsidize you have more of and anything you penalize you have less of”. Sounds pretty mundane, but apply that principal to the federal solutions to our growing number of poor or declining number of financially secure.
January 8th, 2010 at 11:38 am
When I think about the tax situation, and the political situation, my feelings can be summed up easily. I ask you to ask yourself but one question, folks:
“Who’s responsibility is it to take care of ME and MY FAMILY?”
Your answer to this question will resonate volumes about yourself.
My answer to this question, is, of course, “It’s MY responsibility, not OBAMA’S!”
Dear OBAMA: :LEAVE ME AND MY FAMILY ALONE!
January 8th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
It appears that stupidity and greed are running rampant. There is a reason the rich are taxed more…they can still put food on the table if they lose an extra 10%. You’re rich and you think you work hard? Try cleaning toilets, digging ditches, or picking up garbage. That’s hard work too.
If all the heavily taxed are so unhappy and things are so bad, why haven’t they left?… Gone to another country where you’ll be able to prosper and pay less taxes. Wait a minute, no such place exists! Part of your taxes is for the right to own your own business and / or work the job you do that enables you to make better money than most of the world.
No one is ever happy. You make 10’s of thousands, you want 100’s. You make 100’s, you want millions. It’s never enough. Again, if you’re unhappy, leave. I’d rather not have to listen to the whining.
Additionally, a flat tax rate is idiotic. You have people making minimum wage that you want to pay higher taxes? Can you be that dumb? I know, they are the “uneducated idiots†right? I suppose you don’t realize the teachers that gave you the education you have were mostly making 40k or less. Not everyone can be a tycoon unless you don’t mind an absence of roads and a big pile of garbage outside your house. Society needs everyone. Not only are you content not in letting others do your NECESSARY and unwanted jobs, but you’re plenty happy giving them more of a tax burden too. Absurd. To everyone complaining about their taxes….I award all of you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
And by the way, just because you’re paying lower taxes doesn’t mean that you think it’s someone else’s responsibility to take care of your family. I pay lower taxes and take care of my family just fine.
January 8th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
…and as a side note, the reason the consumption tax doesn’t work is because rich people spend a smaller percentage of their income. You might make a million and only spend 100k. Conversely, if you’re making 50k, you’ll probably spend almost all your income to support your family. What ends up happening is the people in the middle pay all their income as tax while the people on the upper end only pay a small chunk of their net value. This leaves the upper end with more money (earning interest). This is why the rich love this system and the middle class hate it.
January 8th, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Frankly, when it comes to taxes, I’m not interested in what’s fair. I’m only interested in what’s Constitutional! And what we have is not constitutional.
A national sales tax, or value added tax, would be acceptable within the structure of the Constitution. But would never get passed because we must consume, consume. Keeps our dollars heading out of the country for lower priced goods. So the country who exports to us can buy our debt with own (mostly borrowed) dollars. Kind of like the politicians buying our votes with our own tax money. That’s why they call it a system.
I bet most people here are paying more as a percentage in taxes and surcharges (a fancy word for tax) for their cell phones than their effective federal income tax rate. Same could be said for the credit card interest rates.
January 8th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
So many people are hung up on the idea that we must make the successful or lucky pay for everyone else. The comment that the percentage of income collected from lower income people, using a consumption tax, is unfair because it is a higher percentage comparitively, is still based on the idea that if you have more you owe me more. Everyone owes something for living here, there are plenty of programs to help people who are in need. For an analogy – this should draw some fire – Consider a campground, a nice one, with all the stuff. To stay in that campground, everyone must pay a fee, however lets say for all the extras there is a charge. Things like the swimming pool, the arcade, the convention areas, the tennis court, etc. You can only do the things you can afford so that is in your control of cost, but you have paid your fee to be there and enjoy the basic amenities like the showers, grills, visiting with your neighbors, taking a walk etc. If you want to enjoy something you cannot afford, I don’t believe the guy in the next spot should not be forced to pay for it. If he wants to that is fine but he doesn’t owe it to you or me.
January 8th, 2010 at 10:41 pm
Duh…..
It’s been said many times, but I guess it needs to be said again. The vast majority of people here aren’t “complaining” about paying more money than “poor” people. Under all tax plans (progressive, flat, sales, etc) that would be the case, and should be. What we (and hopefully the public at large) are complaining about is the massive amount of government waste of those tax dollars. The government creates this perpetual underclass that develops an obscene sense of entitlement and never develops any semblence of accountability or self-reliance. You say you dont make a lot and take care of your family just fine. Kudos to you! I wish there were a lot more like you…
And for what its worth, both a flat tax or sales (consumption) tax would come with huge exemptions (like 50k) so that the garbage men and teachers you are defending would pay nothing (just like they pay now). The benefit of these plans is in ENCOURAGES risk taking and investment (which is actually what creates jobs, not government “stimulus”) rather than DISCOURAGING it.
But I guess I must be idiotic, stupid and..what else? Oh yeah….greedy.
January 8th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
Hey “Duh”,
It’s nice of you to declare that since rich people make more they can afford to pay more. But you are a Looter. YOU decide that “something” should be done by government and YOU decide that SOMEONE ELSE must pay for it. Did you know that the top 1% of income earners pay almost 40% of the income tax? But they only make ~30% of the income? So you tell me, how much of their income do you want to steal before you think it’s fair? 50%? 60%? All of it?
Rich people don’t stick their money under their mattresses. They invest it or spend it. If they invest it, it provides capital for more production and more jobs. If they spend it, it provides capital for more production and more jobs.
Think of all the non-government jobs you’ve ever had (if you’ve ever actually had one). Have you ever been employed by a poor person?
The current tax situation is very unfair. We’ve got almost 50% of the population that pays NO federal income tax. The tax rate of many is negative since they receive “refundable” tax credits. (There’s an Orwellian term for you.) But they get to vote. How long do you think it’ll be when that crosses 50%? Sort of like two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner….
January 9th, 2010 at 12:32 am
Taking from everyone according to their ability and giving to everyone according to their need is the definition of Socialism… go to Cuba and see how it works – - Duh!
January 9th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Effort+gumption+determination=reward. I’m a guy with barely a high school education that has made it big and I wasn’t born with it and I didn’t steal it. All you whiny poor people should get off your dead ass and go out and make something happen so you don’t have to rely on Odrama to feed you.
January 10th, 2010 at 1:50 am
Based upon the somewhat certain passage of healthcare, the 35% tax rate will most likely climb to 40-42 percent. Personal deductions will also be phased out for anyone earning over 200,000 now deemed rich.
I cashed out my IRA and paid the penalty, as my marginal rate pushed to 33% with the penalty, I am still ahead of the ‘game’
January 10th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
No one should have to pay 35% or more in Federal Income Tax. The whole system should be done away with. Even those who pay no income tax can afford beer and cigarettes. We should have a consumption flat tax. Everyone should pay their fair share if it’s a $1.00 or $20,000. ! No poor person has ever created a job.
January 10th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
josh….well said, all of it!
January 11th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Gwen, why do you think you are entitled to anyone’s monies? I am not rich…but you keep your monies and I will keep mine. I work for it…as does the rich. Who do you think gave you your job?
January 11th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
The only thing the Dems do well is taking from those that have and giving away…not necessarily to those that don’t have…just to maintain those that are now beholdin’ to them.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:17 am
I’m in the 28% tax bracket and I’m not happy about it. Everyone says tax the rich but the government isnt really taxing the rich. The IRS is taxing people like me and you that have work hard to get some where but just barely make it by reguardless of our income. The more we make the more we pay. I make a dollar the IRS gets 28 cents now i have .72 of my dollar. The state takes iTs 6% so now i have .66. Then there’s property taxes on my car and house. If I go out to eat i pay another 10% on my .66 i had left over from the state and federal tax. Sooner of later I’ll figure out that it is more productive to not work and live off the welfare of the rich (those of you with a job). A flat sales tax would be fair because if you sp.end money you will pay tax on what you spend. IE Big spender = big tax payer. Lets get real about that the laws are made buy people that are out of touch with the average american. There interest is not whats good for the USA but what will keep them in office. As you can all see by recent events, if your in the good old boy group like wall street and the bankers then you will be rewarded for screwing the american public out of every nickel you can get. Also once you screw them we will reward you with a bailout from the very people that you cheated and destroyed. Dont worry wall street the little guy will have to keep paying for you greed as long as the fox(politicians) is in the hen house(the country). Maybe if we put term limits on house and senate of 4 to 8 years then the country will change its ways. Our next great turning point for the average joe will be the health care bill. Medicare is a joke being ripped off for billions every year…that right billions..and now the politicians think they can run a health care system for the country when they couldnt even run it for a small group of people. If you don’t think your taxes will not increase to around 50% of your check for the federal portion in the next 10 years then you had better wake up. In the long run it maybe cheaper for me to pay a fine and be uninsured untill i get sick then pay for insurance. Like I said before, sooner or later I’ll be better of if I just don’t work at all an let the rich(people with jobs) pay my way.
January 14th, 2010 at 5:50 am
Alot of irrational comments being posted here, as well some good debate (which is nice for a change) . Initially, I was a bit shocked to see how many people want to tax the hell out of the “rich.” Most people in the 28-33% are not rich and have worked their asses off to get there as well.
Do you really think I deserve to be taxed EVEN MORE because my ambition is greater than yours? I didn’t get lucky nor was I born into this – I just used my brain & worked harder than anyone else I know/have ever met. I work for every single penny of it – and I deserve every single penny of it. I have no intention of being greedy with my money – quite the contrary. I don’t need some idiot telling me what should happen to my money. I don’t mind paying the taxes at the current rate, that is okay with me – my concern is the people who believe that I should be paying more because i’ve surpassed them.
If you were sitting in my position – you may not even be as close to as humble as I am. I don’t care for fast cars, big houses, formal gatherings where you throw around big names to feel important, or anything of the sort.
So if you’re angry at me for being where I am today in my 20ish years of life because I worked hard for it – from the ground up – this applies to you:
My ambition is greater than yours – my will exceeds that of yours by 10x – in fact, I don’t like people like you and I will surpass you in every single way possible.
Instead of sitting around complaining – gear that energy towards something positive and bring about a change in your life. Being bitter will take you no where.
January 14th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Now is our chance!
A lot people (like me) complaiing about the Trillions of dollars of wasteful spending and tax increases headed our way. I thought we would have to wait until November to try and stop it and by then most of the damage would be done.
But we can stop it next Tuesday, January 19th. Scott Brown has a REAL chance of winning Ted Kennedy’s seat and ending the Dem’s Supermajority in the Senate. I can’t believe a Republican could get elected in the Bluest of Blue states a year after the “Obama Revolution”. It’s mind boggling. What a difference a year makes!
So if you live in Mass, please get out to vote and bring along a dozen of your closest friends.
If you KNOW someone in Mass please do all you can to convince them to get out and vote for Brown.
One Senator can stop Cap and Trade, Amnesty for 20+ Million illegals, Card Check and possibly even the Health Care monstrosity.
Change You Can Beleive In!
January 14th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Here’s some fun facts for the fiscal conservatives out there:
For the past 100 years, the AVERAGE income tax rate has been around 54%. Much higher than even the highest tax bracket currently.
From 1954 -1963, the highest tax rate was 91%. That’s right, if you made over $400k in that time period (which is equivalent to $3.1 million 2008 dollars) then you sent 91% of it to Uncle Sam. Not a lot of money when you think of the Bill Gates and Warren Buffets of the world. Still, there was a little thing called the Cold War going on that the government felt we should finance. Then there was also the recently passed GI Bill for our soldiers coming home from WW2, a new thing called Social Security, and a whole host of other things that our country saw fit to tax the richest of us to pay for. Funny how in the annals of history we never come across such outrage at taxes as we have today with our exceedingly low rates.
My point: Stop complaining about “high” tax rates. We’re in one of the lowest tax environments since World War Two, we have the highest population that the U.S. has ever seen, the most expensive military apparatus and welfare state in our nation’s history, and two simultaneous ACTIVE military engagements. Oh, and I think we might be in a recession too, now that I think of it. So yeah, everything costs money. Do the tax codes need to be re-written? Well, I’m currently in the 25% bracket, but my equivalent income in 1960 (after accounting for inflation) would put me into the 22% bracket. I’ll let everyone draw their own conclusions on that.
Resources:
Inflation Calculator: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
Historical Tax Rates: http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html
January 15th, 2010 at 10:39 am
If you want to make a difference, in what look to be a critical turning point into a downward spiral for the USA, get involved in the Tea Party Movement. Stop the rediculous government spending. I agree with reform for the health care industry but the goverment cant run medicare how can it run a giant health care system? It cant but in the process of doing so the government is tax us until we have nothing left. It will effect all of us no matter how much you make or dont make. America needs a change for the better not more corruption! Goin a tea party and get involved!
http://www.grassrootsnation.com/Groups/GroupListing.aspx?type=Tea+Party
January 15th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
I just want you all to stop this equal opportuinty to move up the ladder garbage. Peoples aptitudes differ and I will never be a doctor because of it. I make good money, but only because I found my niche. Some people are never going to get out of the service industry becuase they don’t have the skill set OR don’t have the aptitude to gain the needed skill set.
And when people complain about government handouts it makes me sick. Just wait until you have a medical emergency that drains your savings dry in a couple months and then bankrupts you. We had friends that were die-hard conservatives who did not want any social services, but when they had a disabled child they sure changed there tune.
If your are human and you don’t feel some compassion towards humanity that’s a good indication that your a psychopath.
January 16th, 2010 at 9:20 am
Jonathan:
Why don’t you cut out the bomb throwing and the patronizing. Yes, Conservatives are psychopaths with no compassion for humanity. It’s exactly this simple-minded mentality that keeps us from making any real progress in this country. Repoublicans are mean. Democrats are so nice. Blah, blah, blah. Why dont you try and take that argument down another 10 or 20 levels and see if you can make some logical points based on reason.
For the 100th time, if you listened to any of us “Conservatives” (especially my posts), you would see that we are upset that the government is wasting all of the money that should be going towards “families with disabled children”. Why do you want to continue to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on illegal aliens, high school drop outs, felons, lazy leeches, etc when we could be using that money to help the truly needy. The people that play by the rules but still need a helping hand to get by. Why should they have to survive on a couple hundred dollars a week because hundreds of billions are being scammed from the taqxpayers?
In my opinion, anyone who supports a system like that is a psychopath. But I bet it makes you feel good to tell people how compassionate you are at cocktail parties.
January 16th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Jonathan:
Your last comment was so irritating that I almost forgot to respond to your first.
There is no such thing as “genetic aptitude”. Every human being on this planet has an equal capacity and opportunity for learning and growth. Asians aren’t smarter than everyone else, they just work harder. A kid born in the Ghetto today has the same gentic capability to become a doctor as the rich white kid in the sub-urbs. Granted, that kid has a lot more social obstacles to overcome. But his aptitude is no different from anyone else.
If you resist the temptations to do bad things and work hard throughout your life, anyone can succeed. No one is doomed at birth to be in the “service industry”.
This is America for Christ’s sake! At least for the moment…..
January 16th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Some interesting postings of late, particularly liked Jonathan’s objective feedback and Nick’s use of data and fact, quite refreshing from the whining and hate most generate.
Doug L – Did look into the Tea Party movement but found it to be very fragmented. Also find it a bit hypocritical and more geared to be against the current administration than for a particular cause. Where were they when the previous administration took us from a so-called surplus to a deficit, took that deficit to record levels and then doubled the deficit? Don’t recall many DC rallies, if any. Seemed they were okay with that because that administration was so-called “Conservative,†hence my claim of hypocrisy.
Nixon was considered a Conservative yet it was he who approved Supplemental Security Income (SSI) for Immigrants.
Clinton was considered a Liberal yet was able to put the budget into a so-called surplus situation.
Seems any tiger can change their stripes. That’s why I don’t view this Red vs. Blue, or Conservative vs. Liberal. It all gets blended together in the end. To me they’re all Purple Barneys. And until they vote along the lines of the Constitution, the article that all elected officials swears to uphold when taking office, I will vote out all incumbents. That’s my term limits. Don’t need no stinking Tea Party!
I’ve come to the conclusion if your person is in the White House they can do no wrong and if it’s not your person they can do no right, pure politics and pure hypocrisy.
January 17th, 2010 at 2:00 am
@Jonathan
Yeah, some people are not born equal in the skills department. Life sucks. That’s not an excuse to steal from me to help people YOU think are not capable of supporting themselves.
Yes, some people have life-changing events and become moochers. That doesn’t mean they are right.
You’re last point about “you don’t feel some compassion towards humanity that’s a good indication that your[sic] a psychopath.” Compassion? Does not complaining when someone steals my money and life mean I have compassion? Government force is NOT compassion. I have plenty of compassion and I’m willing to VOLUNTARILY lend a helping hand. Don’t presume to know how much compassion I have. I do not like having a gun put to my head and told to be “compassionate,” though.
January 17th, 2010 at 2:11 am
@Russ : I love how libs turn to accusing someone of “hate” when they disagree with you.
Nixon was no conservative. We’ve had very few conservative presidents in the last 100 years. And Clinton only balanced the budget because the republican congress drug him kicking and screaming into doing it. Spending bills originate in the House, remember?
You are right about people cheerleading for whoever is in office. You’d think they’re talking about their favorite sports team. To me, they are all a bunch of Statists that will do anything to increase the power of government.
January 17th, 2010 at 11:10 am
The hate is coming from both sides, Tim; it’s not too difficult to see that.
Yes, I’ve heard it all before.
Reagan’s budget was out of whack because the Democrats made him spend, spend, and spend.
The Clinton budget was a so called “surplus” because the Republicans made him.
This country was better served during Coolidge, Hoover and George W Bush when the Republicans had the White House, the Senate and the House of Representatives.
Pass the kool aid, please.
I say so called “surplus” because our wonderfully elected officials decided to use SS/Payroll taxes to balance the General Fund/Budget. There’s voodoo economics and fuzzy accounting at its best.
Point I was trying to make is that the politicians “run” one way, but tend to “lead” another. Both sides do it. It’s organic to the process. The premise is that we have a choice yet the candidates are usually so much alike the “choice” is a blur. Bush vs. Kerry – two middle aged men, with the same education, with membership in the same secret club who agree on how this country should be managed 80% of the time.
And, of course, this last time we had real choice- Change or More Of The Same. The people who voted for change got more of the same and the people who voted for more of the same are still pissing and moaning because their guy isn’t the messenger.
Mad about the moochers, envious of the successful? Wall Streeters are considered successful, ambitious, etc yet they are the biggest moochers of late with the TARP and other bailout programs. No industry should be “protected” in a free and open society. Yet we’re told they need it or we will be faced with a deep and long lasting recession. How’s that playing out so far?
In May, 2008 we were getting $300+ stimulus checks from our wonderful Government because the economists told us “it will help us avoid a recession.” (Government giving away money must be a Liberal in the White House. No, wait, it wasn’t W’s doing the Dems made him. So much for a Leader and a Conservative. No, wait, W wasn’t a Conservative, he only “ran” on that, just didn’t lead that way. Give me a #%$&@ break.)
How many Red/Republicans/Conservatives here returned their checks? After all, only Blue/Democrat/Liberals would accept a handout, right?
Less than six months later we were in the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Would have been a fine time for someone to step up and say “enough, this system isn’t working, time for real change.” That would have been Leadership. It would be very painful to change our current system. And it will be very painful to continue it, as we are trying to do. There’s our choice. Which pain would the population bear?
Is the real issue what the tax rates are or that the Federal Income Tax itself is Unconstitutional? I think the latter but that gets no mention, just how much. As long as people get a perceived benefit from the system they will support it. With the occasional rant and rave when they feel they’re getting a lesser benefit than someone else.
I’ll stop getting automatic updates from this site, there’s nothing new here. Whine on sheeples; keep supporting your Purple Barneys.
January 17th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
“# Josh Says:
January 5th, 2010 at 11:01 am
2) Blood for Oil, etc, etc. Again, really hard to respond to this one because it is so ludicrous. But for this argument to hold true, you and your ilk would truly have to believe in your heart of hearts that Bush started two wars in the Middle East, put hundreds of thousands of troops in harms way and risked his entire presidential legacy, because he wanted a small group of his friends in some dark smoky room to be able to make millions of dollars on Oil futures contracts?”
I don’t buy into the whole conspiracy thing and I whole heartedly agree with the initial invasion of Afghanistan since *that* is where the terrorists were hiding/training/planning/based and aided by the Taliban in terms of being allowed in the country.
However, would you care to explain the logic behind invading Iraq if not for the purpose of greasing the war machine and enriching Haliburton? And, please, don’t even go the WMD route. A 3 year old could have seen that as bullshit because, as you well know, the Bush administration changed their story several times as to “why” they went into Iraq just before Rumsfeld resigned. And none of that “Saddam was suspected to have ties to Al Qaeda” either nor should you go the “Saddam gassed his people” route because we’d have been in both North Korea already as Kim Jong Il waived his WMDs around like big fluorescent dildos, taunting Bush, and we’d also have been in Somalia cleaning it up as it continues to suffer total anarchy, lawlessness and ethnic cleansing.
January 17th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Russ, I didn’t return any stimulus check because I didn’t get one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Second, if I did receive a stimulus check, I would not return it because it was MY MONEY in the first place. It isn’t a handout when I pay taxes and the government chooses to give my money back to me (but in my case, the government feels that I am too rich, even though I haven’t had a new car in five+ years and took less than three weeks of vacation in the last four years – and one of those vacations was my honeymoon!!!!). By my standards, I am far from rich.
To anyone that says that conservatives lack compassion, get real. The reality is that those that want to see Republicans be compassionate are those that are truly not worthy of ANY handout, but they know that they can scam the government, so they insist on “compassion” from the government. If you want compassion from the government, you are really saying, “give me money because I don’t feel like getting a job or contributing in any way to society.”
We have 501C3s for a reason – to do public good. The government SHOULD be limited to necessary services (police, military, roads). Tax benefits for donating to 501C3s should be increased (one way to do this – you get a deduction for charitable donations beyond the standard deduction) and 501C3s should be the ones to provide welfare type programs. I trust my church, a 501C3 organization that has its tax records reviewed yearly by a CPA and the IRS, to run a welfare program that hands money, food, etc out to the needy in an effecient and effective manner far more than I trust the government to do the same. Why, because my church, like most 501C3s, is run by honest and decent people who WANT to do good. These people work day jobs and want to help others during their time off through donations of their time, talents, and/or money.
You want to save this country, can’t we all agree to pay less taxes, increase the benefits for donating to 501C3s, and maybe increase the tax review of 501C3 records (let’s face it, although 95% of us are honest and decent, there are 5% who are dishonest and need to be found).
I think that you will find that if you give PEOPLE in grassroots organizations more money from local donors, you will find that there are MANY less people in need because communities will begin to take care of their own. And instead of feeling angry at being forced to pay taxes to an inefficient and ineffective government that mismanages social welfare programs, people will feel proud by seeing their money fund a 501C3 that positively helps those that DO need the help in their very own community.
I vote for getting the government out of my pocket and giving me my money back. Let me choose how to be compassionate. The government’s role should be limited to slight encouragement through tax benefits and increased monitoring to ensure no 501C3 fraud.
January 18th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
The item on standard deduction being unchanged is WRONG. There is a change. The additional standard deduction for real estate taxes paid has lapsed for 2010.
January 19th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
Re: Robin’s Political Team
Can I add a self nomination for “Constitutional Enforcer” whereby any lawmaker who attempts to pass a bill deemed unconstitutional spends 5 minutes with me in the broom closet?w
January 19th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Robin,
I’m in.
Cogipro
January 19th, 2010 at 11:35 pm
@Duh,
Let me see if I get you right.
America has prospered under free market capitalism for 200+ years (and low taxes for at least 3/4 of that time). It went from a backwater group of colonies to the world’s largest economic superpower.
France, Spain, and the UK went from world economic superpower status at various points in their histories to stagnant socialist swamps in little over half a century.
You say you’re tired of my whining and I should move, where?, to France? You’re the one that wants the US to become France. Why don’t YOU go there instead of trying to remake the US in France’s image. Or stay here. It’s still a free country, after all. But don’t complain about me being vocal against Marxism. We still have freedom of speech here, after all. For now.
January 20th, 2010 at 1:09 am
My wife and I had dinner with a Canadian couple a few nights ago. The conversation migrated toward health care. Keep in mind they are both professionals and have made a good living. I asked them if they liked the Canadian system. They said it was OK. I then asked if they had ever been refused treatment or had to wait for testing. Their reply was, “Yes, but when this happens, we go to our PRIVATE doctor/clinic and pay upfront!”
So, if you are wealthy in Canada, you can have TWO health systems. Too bad if you don’t have the extra money to do so……the option then is to cross the border and seek treatment in the U.S.
I then asked him, “If you don’t mind a further personal question, what percentage of your income to you pay in Canadian Tax?” He answered, ” About fifty one (51) per cent”. His response was entirely unemotional. Much like the beaker frog in the ever increasing water temperature, this family has been CONDITIONED to pay 51% of their money to the government, and still has to pay out of pocket for what the government will not/cannot treat.
It is interesting that many people don’t care what percentage others have to pay in order to receive what the government promises them, yet history has shown those promises to be empty. And when the 51 percenters run out of money, they’ll come for whoever is left.
If you allow the government to more of your money, you need counseling.
January 20th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Climbing back on my soap box again.
Health Care Reform. As a recently retired RN, this naturally caught my interest. How long has the American public been whining for it? And what’s that old say ing – “Be careful what you wish for”?
Has anyone actually tried to read the first two versions? I got as far as pages 19 and 20 respectively and just gave up. The convolutions in those things were practically awe inspiring. These documents were obviously penned by people who used a twisted pretzel for a straight rule.
When I was going to college, a professor of mine whom I greatly respected once told us that if we couldn’t explain our thesis fully in a one page summary, we obviously didn’t know what the heck we were talking about.
It really would be much easier to just change a few current rules of our existing system. An applicant can not be turned down for a pre-existing condition, any procedure costing the insurance company more than “X” number of dollars should be reviewed by an independent board of physicians (not company accountants) and the cost of routine diagnostic procedures should be standardized across the board.
That last one would really save a bundle as I know from personal experience. Some years ago, I had cause to have a lower GI MRI done. (I didn’t have health insurance by my own choice, preferring to set up my own personal money market account for medical needs rather than pay into a system I might never use.) The receptionist asked me what insurance coverage I had, and curious, I asked her what the difference would be. She replied that depending on what provider I had, the procedure would cost “anywhere from $1400 to $1600.” Yes, I can quote that because it’s still a vivid memory even after more than a decade. I told her I was paying out of pocket. She responded. “Oh, well in that case, it will cost you $800.”
Interesting bit of math, isn’t it?
January 20th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Financial Samurai Says: It is disappointing to have to pay 35% of income to the gov’t. I point out that one would need to have a gross adjusted income of $4 million to pay 34% in Federal Tax. An income of $500,000 will pay just over 27% income tax. An income of $100,000, just under 12%. Europeans, Canadians, paying 50+percent don’t whine because they recieve benefits that they cherish. Americans, for the most part, seem to cherish big take home so they can outspend their neighbors on junk that ends up in the trash.
January 21st, 2010 at 12:07 am
Greg says: “Europeans, Canadians, paying 50+percent don’t whine because they recieve [sic] benefits that they cherish”.
That sounds a lot like “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs.” Where have I heard that before?
Then there’s Plank #2 of the Communist Manifesto:
“2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.”
Greg says: “American’s[sic] for the most part, [sic] seem to cherish big take home [pay] so they can outspend their neighbors on junk that end[sic] up in the trash.”
Yes. It’s their money that they traded hours of their lives to receive. It’s theirs to do with what they like: spend on junk, give away, throw away, invest, or whatever. It’s called freedom. It’s certainly better than some bureaucrat deciding where people’s life energy should be spent.
January 21st, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am – Stuck in the middle with you.
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 21st, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Why should I pay a higher percentage of my income in income tax? Oh, that’s right, I forgot. I worked nights putting myself through undergraduate and graduate school and then worked 80 hour weeks to make my business a success. I keep 39 individuals employed. Yes, I can see how I’m the enemy. How silly of me not to understand that you are entitled to everything and anything you want. I believe I’ll lay off 10 or 12 of my employees so I can pay higher taxes. Because, God forbid, you have to actually go to work to get that 65 inch TV when we all know the Government owes you one. Shame on me for not understanding that it’s not your fault that you bought three times the house you could afford. I’m sure that’s my fault too and I should be happy to pay for your house. I’ll sign off now. I’m going to get in my paid for car and drive home to my paid for home.
January 25th, 2010 at 11:14 pm
To all tho’s who think the 15% bracket should set their standards higher by going back to college and get a better degree. That is a good thought but then again who is going to fry your burger wash your clothes clean your house drive you to work. It takes tho’s people working for a smaller income to keep the world turning. I am not saying raise the rich to a higher bracket but lets not forget tho’s that worker that stands behind a grill all day long so we can have a nice meal. Or tho’s that press our clothes so we don’t have to. I am thankful for the 15% bracket.
January 26th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
The tax code needs to be restructured, but imposing any kind of consumption tax is not only inherently regressive but it also stifles demand more than income taxes. I believe the middle income brackets need to go down a couple percentage points, and that 2 new brackets should be created to separate the middle class from the truly wealthy. It’s ridiculous to treat someone making $500k a year the same as if they were to make $5m…and it’s further ridiculous when one realizes that the majority of earnings for the rich are taxed at capital gains rates (which are much lower than the middle income brackets).
Putting a tax on goods gobbles up a greater percentage of discretionary income for the working poor and middle class, and likely would have its effects bleed into non-discretionary earnings as well. If we were all machines and were 100% rational, a tax on consumption designed to generate the same amount of revenue as a system of income taxes does would yield no difference in outcomes. However, neither people nor the market are completely rational and as such income tax payers internalize the costs of such taxes better than if they do for consumption ones.
Two common examples of which I’m both guilty of –
(1) Paying in excess on my income taxes throughout the year and receiving the difference in the form of a tax return. Although I can adjust my withholding, and it would be rational to do so versus giving the federal government an interest free loan, the marginal difference in my bi-weekly paychecks is so insignificant (about $50 a check) that I decide to go along with it and take my approx $1,500 return in a lump at the end of the year instead.
(2) Buying goods online in which I’m not taxed on the transaction – The amount of “savings” one has in doing this is generally so small over the course of a year that even accounting for it is generally considered immaterial (meaning, it technically should be reported but 99.9999% of people don’t). However, although my $20 book may only save me $1.20 in sales taxes if I purchase online, and despite what basic economic 101 models would suggest, my quantity demand for offline purchases that (for the sake of argument, we assume B&M and online prices are identical) where the sales tax is imposed is very close to 0.
My two examples of my common irrationality (in a generic sense) show both that I’m willing and easily able to internalize the reduced spending power income taxes create whereas my demand for goods that are taxable drops sharply. Given that I’m smack in the middle the 25% bracket and have been blessed with decent enough luck to hold my job even through this crisis, higher tax brackets don’t make me averse to trying to make more money. It’d be even less sane for someone in the highest brackets to desire to earn less money simply because they are in the highest bracket. The demand to supply labor by workers is far less elastic to income taxes than the demand for goods at various sales tax rates.
So, all this fair tax talk is a nice idea for those that would stand to save on their taxes as a result (the highest earners)…but for middle earners the offset of income taxes to be made up by consumption taxes will hurt their spending power and the general velocity of money, while those in the lowest brackets will shoulder the biggest realized tax increase despite being the least able to afford it.
Please try not to have the cynical and narrow view that everyone or even the majority of people in the lowest brackets “deserve” to be poor. As automation and globalization and conglomeration are the economic realities of today, so to are the casualties of such movements towards efficiency that any one of us could fall victim to despite our efforts to be good and hard workers. Trickle down simply doesn’t work, and to adopt a system of taxation that assumes it does is only to further divide the classes and reduce/marginalize the so-called “middle class”.
January 28th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Check this out: In 2009 I was in the top 35% tax bracket(actually the last 9 years I have been in that bracket). I live in MN where I pay another 8% on my taxable income. I also pay a few thousand in AMT and the tax law disallows my personal exemptions for wife and kids. I also lose a few thousand in itemized deductions because I make over $300,000. All told, I estimate my top tax bracket is about 55%. And……this is with the so called “Bush tax cuts” lol. Can’t wait for socialist obama and his lemming democrats to raise the tax brackets even higher. What a pathetic lot they are.
January 29th, 2010 at 10:46 pm
I work a part-time job and I WANT federal taxes taken out of my weekly check. But they say that I am not in the bracket to have any taken out. I am trying to get it changed over to zero on my filling status. Cause I am afraid that by the end of the year I will be the one paying due to thier mistake. (NICELY PUT)
January 30th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Josh, I wish you would send your recent commentary regarding how to create jobs in this country to your local Republican Congressman and Senators. If you don’t mind, I will be sending your commentary to mine!
February 1st, 2010 at 9:56 am
Thanks Marci.
I actually did send that along to the House Republican Leadership. My specific Reps and Senators wouldn’t really care for this message. Took a shot on the House Leadership but I’m not holding my breath. Expect to get some form letter back and continue to watch them flounder with their message like they have for the last 20 years.
Hopefully you will have better luck!
Josh
February 1st, 2010 at 10:11 am
i made the same amount of money this year as i did last year and im getting less money back then the year before.i got just a little over 7,000 last year and i am only getting 4,000 this year and nothing has changed on my end,its Because some idiot wanted to change things and that messed it up for everyone.i count on my tax return every year to get the things my children need.the new tax rules are bs!what the hell is obama thinking?
February 1st, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Get over the high tax rates…
The majority of American’s complain about what they can’t have and they overspend and put themselves into massive debt, yes it sucks for the ones of us who can live within our means and work for a living but that’s all part of this grand scheme.
The rich will never get taxed to hell and back, Republican’s say they will increase taxes and help the rich, the Democrats take the rich peoples money just as much and act innocent. They are equally guilty, think about who your political head figures are friends with, it’s not the plumber down the road or the manager of your local gas station.
Then to mention we give out section 8, welfare, food stamps like they are free… But not if you are a single man raising 2 kids… On the other hand I know multiple women who waste the little money they do make on booze and drugs raising 2 kids home free paid for by our wonderful government, why work when you don’t have to?
I’m 26 and I’ll make about 44k this year, it’s not horrible but I used to think it wasn’t a bad amount of money. I drive a ‘02 BMW and have a motorcycle I ride during the spring and summer, I take vacations, go places and buy basically whatever I feel like I want. I budget my money well, pay my bills and save money.
IMO, this country is screwed there are too many bleeding hearts, too many people that don’t care and too much power and nearly nobody to even consider stepping up to it, this previous health care bill was proof of that.
I myself? I’m planning on moving to the Netherlands after grad school where there is a much higher tax rate and half of the issues and corruption in the government.
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:31 am
In a capitalist economy, people who are rich and successful have earned it (besides the few people like Paris Hilton who were born wealthy etc.). It isn’t fair for an entrepreneur to work his/her ass off for years but then get the shit taxed out of them when they can finally enjoy their success.
February 4th, 2010 at 1:43 am
Another misunderstanding I just noticed. That somehow “the wealthy” create jobs for us poor folk, when it is actually small businesses that do most of the job creation. The small businesses that are getting tax breaks this year & hopefully some stimulus money soon.
Stimulus: I saw some people poo pooing it here. They don’t realize this was not Obama’s solution : it was the solution of all major economists because we were about to go into complete economic free fall. Most of the disagreement amongst them was that some didn’t think it was enough to pull us out!
Good news about the Bank Bailout: the biggest ones have paid it back.
February 4th, 2010 at 8:34 am
Dear GrannyGB,
At least one bank is not paying the money back. It is a sham transaction. The Federal Reserve bought some of Bank of America’s assets – so the Fed gave more money to the bank and the bank gave bad assets and the money back to the fed. Nothing changed except a ridiculous bailout for an organization that should have been run better and should have been allowed to fail. And now, our government has more bad assets on their books and BofA is doing much better. I hate BofA for this transaction and won’t ever be their customer. I hate our President for allowing such a sham to occur and then having the arrogance to brag about it – thinking that most of the American people are too stupid to see the truth.
My husband and I checked and re-checked that our bank DID NOT get bail out money. If they did, we would have switched.
As for China influencing our elections, you are wrong. Read the Supreme Court decision. You and the President can try all you want to make his state of the union speech seem true, but they are not. Read the Supreme Court decision. Also, it is amusing that you want to “worry” about something that is not true and at the same time bash the Supreme Court for upholding free speech, when you are on a message board using your free speech rights!
February 8th, 2010 at 10:54 am
Russ – An interesting question you raise about whether on not politicians should do what the people want or what they believe is “right”. As a rule, I believe our elected officials should always do what the voters demand of them. If you don’t believe in that, then you shouldn’t live in this country. However, you use as an example (TARP), probably the one exception that proves this rule. As a Conservative, something like TARP is anathema to me. As it is to Liberals who never want to help “Wall Street” over “Main Street”. This universal disdain for TARP is probably why I begrudgingly supported its use and actually view it as a moderate success as of now. The suddenness and ferocity of the credit market collapse was (hopefully) a unique issue that required (hopefully) a unique solution. TARP was a success, in my opinion, because it did calm the market and bring liquidity to an area in desperate need of it. What would have happened without it? Unknown, but it could have been much worse than it is now. But its real success was that it was treated, for the most part, like a true “loan” from the taxpayers rather than a hand-out. Half of the money has actually been paid back with interest! I never thought that would happen. Who hasn’t paid it back? Well Fannie, Freddie, AIG, Chrysler and GM. That money is gone, never to be recovered. That, especially the UAW hand-outs (OK, maybe it wasn’t from TARP, but same principle) was a horrible deal. But for probably a net cost of lets call it $350B, we averted a true “Depression”. Probably as a good a deal as you’ll get with the Federal government being involved. Now the fact that Obama want to take the money WE ACTUALLY GOT PAID BACK and use it on more handouts is infuriating to me but that’s another rant…..
So, to your original question, why is going against the people’s will with TARP OK, but it’s not OK to Socialize the healthcare industry against the will of the people? Or pass a Global Warming Energy Tax against the will of the people? Or pass Illegal Alien Amnesty against the will of the people? Well those are purely partisan issues. When only one party thinks it’s a good idea, and the public is against it, well they are the deciding, and most important vote. TARP was hated by all, which probably meant there was some good in it somewhere…………..
February 8th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
# Gwen Says:
October 7th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Those of you rich folks in the top 35% tax bracket need to stop whining. You don’t get to whine. I hope this administration taxes the beejesus out of you all…it’s time you paid your fair share and get with the program. It’s only fair the wealthy pay more out of their millions and billions of dollars to subsidize the rest of us who need it the most. We are struggling in this recession and it’s time to fix the problem – by taxing the rich!
*****************
This is insanity. If you are not working 17 hour days, 7 days a week and busting your hump to make whatever amount of money you make, then it’s all mine, not yours. It’s not my responsibility to lift you up, get your A$$ up off the couch, put down the remote and get to work. I am a self made person who has paid my dues for 22 years with the work ethic mentioned above, anything less than that doesn’t get my attention. Socialism is not what the USA was built on, if that’s what you want, you need to move. Please.
February 9th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Well Russ, obviously I’m a Socialist because I think TARP did help stabilize the economy. I never even knew myself how “big government” I was. But I still say short term loans to stabilize capital markets are much better than handouts that we will never see again (Stimulus debate anyone?). I’d hate to see where the Dow would be today if BOA or CIti (or both) failed and people making $250k a year with great credit couldn’t get a loan without a gun and rubber mask.
We’ll agree to disagree.
February 9th, 2010 at 11:07 am
Well, Josh, if you wish to proclaim yourself an obvious Socialist you are free to do so. It is still a quasi free country.
February 10th, 2010 at 3:42 pm
The problem as I’ve seen is that too much of our wealth is being redistributed out of country.Working class people are being hit from every angle.Manufacturing jobs are sent
overseas to procure a small additional profit,illegal immigrants flood the country to work in so called”jobs americans don’t want “,IT jobs that were supposed to replace displaced manufacturing jobs quickly evaporated to India.Americans can’t consume what they can,t afford without decent paying jobs that our government and business seem hell bent on removing from our shores. We send China our jobs,their economy and standard of living explodes-our economy stagnates,energy prices explode because of new markets and we borrow money from a communist country to float our sagging economy due to cash flow problems created by our government so we keep buyiny goods kept at artificially low prices due to undervalued currencies and th cycle perpetuates itself.I don’t mind paying a higher tax rate if I know it is being used wisely and produces a better standard of living for us.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Do any of you WHINERS know how to do simple math???? This country rewards innovation, hard work, and risk taking (of their own money). EVERYONE has educational opportunities. I’m sick of listening to the victim mentality of individual who goofed off in high school, didn’t attend college, and now they are they are suddenly victims of those who worked their tails off to become successful.
With the multitude of deductions for dependents, property taxes, child care, earned income credit, tuition, education, etc. etc. etc. those with small incomes pay a TINY amount of taxes, often less than $5,000 per year. I know, I HAVE BEEN THERE, DONE THAT! I have also worked my a$$ off for 32 years and worked my way up. What’s the reward???? NOW, I get to pay over $32,000 per year in Federal income taxes, plus 7% for social security, plus medicare, plus 8.25% sales tax, plus $4,500 property tax, plus a tax on every other bill….electricity, telephone, gasoline, etc. I am paying well over 50% of my income in taxes to ‘help” those who chose NOT to seek an education. I HAVE ZERO SYMPATHY FOR THEM!!!!
February 12th, 2010 at 12:28 am
KenC
Thanks for your sacrifice we can all be proud of your commitment.
…as for Gwen,
People paying at the 35% tax bracket are providing jobs and taking risks to start up businesses. In some cases having worked 18 hour days for 20 plus years(or more). The US is a great land of opportunity. Many of the folks preaching “tax the rich” (as an answer) come from a mind set that wealthy people don’t deserve to succeed. When and if the majority of Americans share Gwens opinion then two things come to mind.
1)The wealthy will simply leave the US and so will their money, jobs and tax revenue.
2)The brightest and best (who have no money now) will no longer locate in the US to get ahead….loss of human capitol. Loss of future brilliance=future money, jobs and tax revenue…as they succeed elsewhere!
I’m going to end this at that….and have a beer in KenC’s honor.
Respectfully,
18 HRs again
February 14th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Wow! The opinions, the knowledge, and the controversy contained in this blog! Unfortunately I can’t take the time right now to read EVERY post, but from what I’ve read there are some extremely well informed participants and some who could benefit from a little research. I, admittedly, wouldn’t feel comfortable arguing with some of these points without doing some research. However, I do feel comfortable stating that we live in the BEST country in the entire world regardless of the economic situation we are now in. I believe that EVERYONE who lives here should do their part to support the government programs that are necessary to keep our country free, safe and promote the educational and capitalistic opportunities our forefathers intended.
Since the primary focus of this blog is (supposed to be) taxes, I put out a dare to EVERYONE who has posted or reads these posts in the future – take the current situation that YOU are in financially right now. Go to http://www.fairtax.org and see what this ‘FAIR TAX’ is REALLY all about. Look at it from your situation, from your parents/kids situations. Find out where within this proposal it would be bad for YOU. Josh, Dan, Cogipro, Marci, Russ, those who care enough to be sure they have their facts straight about the government’s current situation – work it out – would it provide the ‘fix’ for our country’s financial future?
It seems that everytime you hear someone make a suggestion on how to ‘fix’ the tax problem, or ‘fix’ the budget problem, it’s good for some and bad for others. (Helps the low-income but penalizes the high-income; good for the employed, but hurts the fixed income Seniors/disabled; fair to the consumer, but bad for businesses; etc.) These things can be debated from now until the end of time – but it won’t do anyone any good until enough people agree we need to do something SOON.
Early on, ‘oldbird’ put this information in as posts, and I feel they’re worth re-mentioning…
Dec. 2, 2009:
“With all this angst about taxing, I’m surprised no one has mentioned the FAIRTAX.
step 1 – repeal the 16th amendment
step 2 – eliminate the IRS
step 3 – pay every wage earner 23% of the Federal poverty level
step 4 – eliminate all payroll, corporate and Social Security taxes
step 5 – institute a 23% sales tax on all new products sold in the US.
details @ FAIRTAX.ORG”
Dec. 9, 2009:
“Two more good reasons for the FairTax!
The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 296) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.
The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.
The FairTax:
Enables workers to keep their entire paychecks
Enables retirees to keep their entire pensions
Refunds in advance the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Allows American products to compete fairly
Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding
Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Abolishes the IRS”
For those concerned about the corporations and jobs going overseas….check the part about “Allows American products to compete fairly”
For those concerned about the so-called ‘rich’ finding the loopholes….check the part about “closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation”.
Everyone – how much do you spend each year to have someone ‘knowledgable’ about the tax code prepare your taxes? What guarantee do they provide that they KNOW the tax code and don’t just use a computer program designed by someone who also is supposed to be knowledgeable?
Sure, a 23% sales tax sounds like a lot – but think about it from a ‘gross pay’ situation rather than your current ‘take home’ pay. And, in reality YOU decide how much tax you’re going to pay by the choices you make in your purchases. If you REALLY can’t live in a ‘used’ house – you MUST have a new one – then it’s YOUR choice to pay the taxes – not the government’s! And it doesn’t remove that option from someone with a lower income, it just means that you have to choose what’s important to you.
Oh, and the one that cures my pet-peeve: ‘Pay every wage-earner 23% of the poverty level’. There really is more to this than is stated – look it up. This is the part that prevents a negative impact on Social Security/Disabled persons on a fixed income and yet makes it ‘fair’ to low and high income earners across the board. Since it requires a Social Security number to receive this payment for offset of necessities, it means that if you are here without the proper paperwork, you get to pay taxes for necessities, but you don’t get the offset.
As I stated in the beginning, I am admittedly someone who could benefit from doing more research, so don’t just take my word for this, BUT – don’t condemn my opinion until you’ve done the research to properly argue it!!!!
And if you can’t offer a better plan, don’t vote against it when it finally reaches the ballot!!! http://WWW.FAIRTAX.ORG
February 15th, 2010 at 2:34 am
KenC, you should have worked as hard trying to read a book as opposed to being a soldier and probably another uneducated blue collar worker. Thanks for your service, but you helped support a country run by the highest bidder whose sole intention is to take the most money possible without having to give out very much.America stopped being the land of opportunity and turned into a national casino the day greedy old white men got the upper hand. Pay employees what they are truly worth and taxes won’t be such a big deal, unless of course you’re a greedy old white man as well.
February 15th, 2010 at 10:39 am
Thank you MiddleClassSingleMom! ! We’re supposed to be talking tax brackets not personal behavior. We have to fund our government – what’s the fairest way.
BTW- Fair means EVERYONE is treated the same.
Here’s the latest point from the FairTax site-
“More than a billion dollars a year is spent lobbying the tax code. Washington lobbyists are so successful as tax lobbyists that the hallway outside the House Ways and Means Committee room is called, “Gucci Gulch†because of the expensive shoes typically worn there. Tax committee staff and retired or defeated members can see six and seven figure “signing bonuses†when they move from Capitol Hill to a “K St†tax lobby firm. The FairTax ends this corruption by closing all the loopholes.”
Read the FAQ’s on the FairTax site to understand how it’s designed.
February 15th, 2010 at 11:29 am
Josh..thank you. And as to Fair Tax…the only fair tax is a tax that is levied on everybody equally (none of this “fair share” BS where one is charged by what they can afford). The only fair tax is one that is charged at an = % so that everybody knows what it’s like to pay taxes. get rid of payroll deductions, turn Social Security back into what it was supposed to be at conception and limit the Federal Government’s right to spend to national security, sealing our borders and meaningful interstate business, help for those who truly need it (ie: the lame not the lazy – slavery ended over 225 years ago). The rest is up to individual states…that way, if you don’t like the way the state governs things and/or spends you money and can’t change it, you can at least move to a different state without leaving the country. Illegal means illegal…not undocumented. The USA was built on assimilation…not false hyphenated cultural identification and separation.
February 15th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
OB – There’s a few areas that would have to be hashed out in greater detail but first let me state emphatically that I am all for repealing the 16th Amendment and getting rid of the IRS. And while we’re at it support HR 1207 and get The Fed on the endangered species list as well. Although the are a few here who would shed many a tear for the end of corporate welfare and bailouts.
I do believe the Constitution allows for the taxation of profit in an enterprise so doing away with corporate income taxes goes a bit too far in my opinion. I can’t think of a better way to fund our military (especially if we’re going to continue to have bases all around the globe) than to have the multinationals help in the cost. And, while we’re at it, those serving in the military would be in line for a HUGE raise. Something that would make the AIG and TARP expenditures look like a girl scout cookie sale.
As for uniformity and proportionate I’m not sure how the Fair Tax would address those areas. As I said before I will look into it further but the Fair Tax is certainly a far cry better system than what we have now.
I also don’t believe the Federal Government should be collecting anything just to distribute back to the states. That is totally inefficient and not what our Founding Fathers wanted in a Federal Government. I believe they wanted less involvement except in true national issues such as defense.
Any transition will to a new system will be painful. Just as I believe we are in for more pain with our current system. If we are going for change, lets take the time to find a system that aligns us closer to the Constitution. Fairness is a worthy objective but in a country of over 300 million people it would be a major challenge to get a consensus on what is fair.
February 15th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Republicans Are Greedy..so what is your degree in asshole? You don’t like it here – move! I also have an education in life, in warfare, in business and in being crippled…you come across as an unaccomplished malcontent who has never accomplished anything other than acute whining and who has never done anything for himself preferring to live off of government handout and entitlements…FO scumbag!
Of course you can’t agree about Jackson, Sharpton, etc. who threaten people and corporations…no let’s call it what it is…blackmail…to keep from calling a boycott using the victim/racecard BS.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:57 pm
I think we would all be better served if we did away with the name calling and hate. Another worthy objective to say the least. And easier said than done. I would ask that everyone avoid the temptation to lower themselves to the least common denominator here.
Isn’t there a street corner some of you can rant on?
February 19th, 2010 at 8:42 am
They need to do away with the Earned Income Credit. No person should be able to get back more than they paid in. You want more money work more. The people in the higher brackets earned the pay and everyone has the same chances it just depends on what you choose to do with the opportunity. Actually, low income class has better chance. Their kids get free medical, prescriptions, pre-school, free lunch at school, free books and tuition, free college (via pell grants etc), assistance with food, clothing, electric, gas and the list goes on. While I make too much, then my kids have to work there way through college or I have to figure out how to pay for it…if I add in the freebies I don’t get I’m making less than the poverty level and still getting stuck paying for the “low income people”. Not a fair and balanced system. I worked my way through college (no freebies)…qualified for some freebies with our oldest child but kept at it an now make too much to receive any “freebies” so now our other kids don’t get headstart unless we pay for it (can’t afford to do that) therefore they aren’t getting that early education that would be available had I have just stayed in the same tax bracket….
I am disgusted that the hard working people are paying for all the goodies of the low income while my kids do without. If you make 12,000, how on earth do they justify getting a refund of 6-8 thousand at the end of the year….I personally would rather the government stop allocating my hard earned funds to make themselves look good. I earned it and would like to decide how I spend it.
February 21st, 2010 at 2:05 pm
TimT- If you check any of my earlier posts you will see that I am adamantly against forced (i.e. income) taxes.
What I am for is that ALL citizens (and corporations and States) should be treated EXACTLY the same. That means ALL kids should get free medical, prescriptions, school books and education on the cause and remedy for obesity. That includes yours, mine the $5000 a year single mom’s and the $5,000,000 a year earner’s! If the government chooses to subsidize something it must do it for everyone equally, not just for ’special cases’. If I choose to subsidize someone I can, with my own money, choose whomever I want to receive it.
This country was born over taxes and the founders went to great lengths to ensure that no one was forced to pay taxes. In our society, if you want to feed and cloth your family you must work and earn income. On which, you MUST pay taxes. That is a forced tax.
So – in response to your question “Are you a selfless philanthropist, or a Statist-Progressive-Looter”, I am neither. I am a citizen who believes the Federal government is only allowed to do the things specified in the Constitution and that the 16th Amendment should be repealed.
February 21st, 2010 at 8:38 pm
Clueless or mindless? You decide.
February 24th, 2010 at 11:36 am
We relocated to the east coast for a career change. Both my wife and I both sought better and higher paying jobs so we left the Midwest for the East Coast. Well, that also pushed us into the 28% tax bracket, yet our quality of life has actually decreased because of how expensive housing is, how much it cost to commute, park etc. I can’t wait to move back to a large midwestern metro area and cut our income by 40% and get back into a lower tax bracket and back into a nice home. Making 150-200kk on the east or west coast is like making 50k in the midwest. Far from “rich”. Get me out of here.
February 26th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
Russ – point taken. peace?
February 26th, 2010 at 7:02 pm
You 10%/15% crybabies are delusional. You cry about how the rich don’t pay enough taxes well her are some numbers for you broken down to yearly taxes per bracket married filing jointly….
10%—$1,675
15%—$10,200
25%—$34,325
28%—$58,590
33%—$123,304
35%—$130,795
Notice 15% crybabies I pay (most likely) more in taxes than you even make working. SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH YOUR CRYING ALREADY.
February 27th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
oldbird – Absolutely peace, never a need to ask the question. I try not to let someone’s passion for their beliefs get miss-interpreted into a personal assault. Besides, I’d like to think my skin is a little thicker than that.
February 27th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Stop complaining about companys not paying enough taxes. Companys don’t pay taxes! The people who buy their products do. That’s you and me. Companys must make a profit or investors (you and me) will not give them the capital (money) that they need to make the product that makes the profit. So they must pass on the tax as they do all expenses or they go out of business. When passed on expenses increase to the point that makes the product unaffordable we stop buying their products or they reduce profits to pass on to investors. The end result is the same investors go away and the companies go out of business. That is why they must pass on all expenses. You can’t limit profits either to force them to eat the tax. Profits must be proportional to the risk. I won’t loan/invest any amount of money in a more risky venture if I won’t potentially make more money (profit). Otherwise I would stick with the less risky venture. When the government increases taxes on corporations they are just adding a hidden tax on us. Hidden taxes are the worst kind. We think were sticking it to the other guy when it is really us.
March 1st, 2010 at 11:06 am
RecentGrad…well said and thank you for your contibution to society. It is great when a young person has values like yours…and thank your parents too. Regardless of anything else, they instilled in you the values of personal responsibility and accountability…with that, and your guaranteed right to equal OPPORTUNITY…you will succeed!
March 1st, 2010 at 1:34 pm
You know, I normally wirte-off everyone under the age of 30 as just some moronic blob of lemings that automatically pulls the lever for the Dem’s just so that they can tell all the other lemmings how caring, compassionate and enlightened they are.
But RecentGrad givems me a slight glimmer of hope for the future of this country…..
March 1st, 2010 at 9:20 pm
It does not take long to figure out why this country is headed down the toilet. The politicians have succeeded in cementing the “entitled to everything” mentality. Work means nothing anymore. Power to the people!!! What freaking idiots!
March 3rd, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Yep…and I wonder how they are going to pay for all the “entitlements” for all these lazy bums after they run out of “our” money?
March 4th, 2010 at 10:49 am
1st- $5,000 deduction each person for Trad. IRA
2nd= Sep IRA 18% of net income, make $100,000 in profit, $18,000 is deductible… File a tax extension and you will have several extra months to contribute for 2009 taxes…
Hope this helps I was in the 25% bracket I paid 11.78%
March 7th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
TimT – So nice of you to throw Pattie a bone and agree with her on one point. When I see your posts with their name calling and inherent venom it makes me wonder if you stomp your feet and hold your breath when you write them. Keep assuming, you wear it well.
Josh was right? He only mentioned four years of W’s eight years in office. Doesn’t that make him only half right? And while revenues did go up (44%) during the years mentioned, it wasn’t until W’s second term that revenues exceeded what he had inherited from the previous administration. Unfortunately spending was never adjusted for the decline in revenues. Even with a Republican Congress. Hard to imagine that a Republican Congress could drag Clinton kicking and screaming to a surplus but didn’t have the balls to drag a Republican President to do the same. I smell hypocrisy.
You keep saying spending bills originate in the House. Currently, they are debating a House version and a Senate version of Health Care Reform. That is clearly a spending bill, so how did one version originate in the Senate if spending bills originate in the House? Also, why do both branches of Congress have Appropriation Committees? (Side Note; Interesting definition for Appropriation – The taking of something that belongs to or is associated with somebody else, especially without permission. THAT might explain why both branches have an Appropriations Committee.)
Clinton changed his stripes while in office so there may be hope for O. Just be careful what you wish for.
We got two wars that are still in progress. How on earth do you know how much they will cost? And in the terms of human life, how much will Obama’s stimulus bill cost?
I guess killing people is okay as long as it doesn’t cost too much. Makes winning the Cold War all the more worthwhile.
“Reagan: Josh pretty much already covered this. Revenue increased dramatically during his term. Spending increased MUCH faster. Yeah, Reagan could have vetoed some of the spending, but he had to let some of it slide to get other things he wanted out of the Democrat controlled congress (remember, he had a Cold War to win… which he did win).â€
We beat the Big Red Threat with barely firing a gun. We just had to outspend them. I guess its okay to let the military mooch off the taxpayers. Afterall, our fighting men and women were, and are, compensated so well for putting their life on the line during the Cold War and the current wars.
11) I case you didn’t notice, Reagan’s tax reform eliminated many of the tax breaks the “rich” took advantage of. BUT it lowered the top marginal rates down to a relatively reasonable amount.
Many have stated that the 1993 Tax Act under Clinton was the largest tax increase in America’s history. I believe the Tax Reform Act of 1986 under Reagan was a greater tax increase for the middle class than Clinton’s 1993 bill, because of the elimination of credit card, auto loan interest, changes on mortgage refinancing and other provisions. It also introduced us to passive and non-passive income which impacted the upper middle class and higher, so the reform hit everyone. I also think the Act had a direct cause on the October, 1987 market crash and the subsequent Savings and Loan crisis. The 1986 Act was “re-distribution of wealth†with the Resolution Trust and the liquidation of billions in real estate at pennies on the dollar. Anyone posting here get in on that ride or is currently buying assets from the FDIC? My, how history does repeat itself regardless of party in control of the White House or Congress.
The average American taxpayer was paying 10.4% of their income to Federal Income Taxes before the 1986 Act to 13.2% after. I think the middle class picked up the majority of that tab. I voted for Reagan, the first term. But did not vote for him on his re-election primarily for firing David Stockman. But I do credit Reagan for making me give the Republican Party a closer look. I supported their 1994 campaigns and the subsequent Contract With America. Unfortunately, they couldn’t follow through on it. Made them look just as hypocritical as Democrats.
For many years I didn’t have a problem paying taxes, I just wanted value for my money. But I learned over the years how to play their game and work within the system to keep as much as I could. Then I saw Aaron Russo’s “America: Freedom To Fascism†which compelled me to pick up a book on the Federalist Papers and The Constitution. Opened my eyes to how both parties sell us out.
Both parties spent years re-aligning voting districts. This resulted in the ranting and raving and greater polarity in America, along with the emergence of cable stations like MSNBC and FOX. So they narrowed the playing field and the dialogue. Mostly to keep the peons distracted.
I’m done with my opinions and rants. I only came here to get the projected tax tables to help my clients keep more of their money. All this other noise is becoming too much of a distraction.
I do enjoy the exchange of ideas and opinions, though. Yes, Josh and TimT, that includes you two (minus the name calling from TimT).
I do hope we vote them all out for the next 20 – 30 years.
We also need to get rid of The Fed. No private entity should be allowed to print money and charge interest to the Federal Government for the use of that currency. It’s in the Constitution; Section 8 The Congress shall have the power to coin Money. Shame on the Congress for circumventing their responsibility and shame on the American voters for allowing it to continue.
Previous attempts at a Central Bank were done under 20 years Charters. Representatives had the foresight to subject the previous banks to review and re-approval. That no longer exists. It’s time to get it back. Between The Fed and the Keynesian economic model it pursues there will be more social engineering and the further expansion of the Federal Government. Politics got us into this mess and politics will get us out of it. Start local, get involved, and keep an open mind and the BS to a minimum.
The Fed made $45 Billion and has no competition. Nice business model, no?
Bye all.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/index.cfm
March 8th, 2010 at 11:33 pm
Russ:
You mistake passion for anger. Name calling? Really? Do you mean my use of “Statist-Progressive”? Or my implication that Pattie may be an idiot? At least I didn’t assume she was a domestic terrorist as Jerry seemed to be implying about me.
Yes, it wasn’t until W’s second term that revenues exceeded what he inherited from the previous administration. Do you think the reduced revenue may have had anything to do with the recession after the dot-com bubble? Or the further economic problems caused by 9/11?
Yes the Republican Congress dragged Clinton kicking and screaming to a surplus. No they didn’t do it with Bush. I wish they had. If there’s hypocrisy, it’s Republicans forgetting why they were elected and turning into entrenched Statist-Progressives. That’s why they were taken to the woodshed in ‘06.
Yes, spending bills originate in the House. Section I Article 7 of the US Constitution says, “All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.” Now strictly speaking, that means the House originates tax bills, not necessarily spending bills. But Alexander Hamilton wrote in Federalist 66 that “originating money bills” originate in the House. In fact, the House has traditionally interpreted this to mean tax AND spending bills must originate in the house. When the Senate has attempted to originate a spending bill in the past, the House has sent them a “blue slip” that basically told the Senate to go pound sand. Since the House would have to agree to pass a Senate spending bill, and they don’t, the bills wither and die. See this link for more info: http://www.c-span.org/questions/weekly32.asp
As for the cost of the wars, I’m obviously speaking about what they have cost up until now. I have no idea what they will cost in the future. And I don’t have a problem killing people who want to kill us and / or have actively done so.
Yes, we won the Cold War by outspending the Soviets. I think that’s a much better solution than ending it via a nuclear war. I don’t have a problem with military spending. It’s one of the few activities our government does that is actually constitutional. And I would love to divert a little money spent on weapons systems in order to double or triple current military pay rates. Those people deserve a hell of a lot more than we’re giving them. (Actually, that’s not correct: we’re not giving, they earned it.) And I wish the VA was worth a damn.
Yes, the 1986 tax act removed a lot of deductions. But it tended to flatten the tax rates. If you calculate the portion of income that was taxed at 33% and offset it against the lower brackets, then the rich paid a flat 28% tax rate on all their income. Everyone else paid some graduated rate up to 28%. Everyone lost some deductions, but look what the deductions were doing: encouraging people to go into debt. Tax policy shouldn’t do that. People who paid cash were punished by not getting the deduction. Granted, in times since then people have still gotten over their heads in debt… even more so… but that’s largely the result of artificially low interest rates and the current culture of instant gratification.
You say you didn’t vote for Reagan in his second term. Did you vote for Mondale? Do you really think he would have done a better job?
I was ecstatic about the ‘94 congressional takeover. I too wish they had followed through. I wish W. had turned out to actually be a fiscal conservative on something other than tax cuts.
Yes, in a perfect world, I’d get rid of the entire crop of professional politician in Washington and in state governments. But I think there’s as much chance of that happening as of a forty pound gold meteorite falling in my yard. So, I’ll hold my nose and give the Repubs another shot. A vote for a Democrat, even a “blue dog” empowers the Pelosis and Reids and we can’t survive them much longer.
YES, I want to see the Fed done away with. YES, I want to see Keynesian economics die a long deserved death.
Actually, I think we agree on more than we disagree.
March 12th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Oh my God! How do people like Bill Kane exist? Why can’t they just move to Canada? So demoralizing that they cancel out my vote. When did people in this country collectively lose their power of reason?
1) Deficits in the 1980’s averaged $200B and bumped around a range of 2.5% to 6% of GDP. The Deficit in 2009 was 10% of GDP and over a Trillion dollars. Next year will be 11% and close to 1.5Trillion. Yes, why let facts get in the way.
2) I have no idea if there were 3 times as many Welfare people during Reagan’s time. But there probably was. Who stopped that? Newt Gingrich. Ever heard of Welfare Reform of the mid-90’s.
3) Taxes were higher? Please. The Marginal rate may have been, but the effective was lower. 98% never paid more than the 28% bracket. Don’t ever imply that Reagan
supported high taxes. The ground may swallow you up….
March 18th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
I’m disgusted with some of the comments that have been left on this board. I grew up in a lower middle class family and had to work my way up from the very beginning. My parents didn’t have the money to pay for my college education.. therefore I knew from the start that I had to do well in school in order to make it somewhere in the world. I bought my first car, I took out loans for my entire college education w/o any scholarships or government help, I saved every penny I could for several years and barely got by month to month, and when I finally graduated and got a great paying job.. I got nailed with a ridiculous tax rate. So for someone like me who’s been working hard their entire life and not received any handouts.. having to pay a gigantic tax on my earnings after all the work I’ve done is nothing short of robbery. I shouldn’t be penalized because I chose to stay home every Friday and Saturday night studying for a test on Monday when all my friends were out partying, and it’s not my fault that I chose to save my money and not blow it on things I couldn’t afford. Before you blame the “rich” – you need to look back on the decisions you made throughout your life and ask yourself where things went wrong. I worked too hard and sacrificed too much to be paying the current horrific tax rate.
March 18th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Nick, I’m glad you’re satisfied with the tax you pay. I really have to scratch my head to figure out why you’re willing to give up more money, which you had to trade part of your life to get, in order to pay more by force. That’s like being mugged in an alley and telling the mugger you wished you could give him more.
Now don’t get me wrong, being altruistic and voluntarily giving your money for something worthy is a good thing. But government is not charity. As George Washington said, “Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. Government is force; like fire it is a dangerous servant — and a fearful master.â€
Also, the bottom (roughly) 45% of people pay NO federal income tax. Some, in fact, have a negative tax rate because they get “refundable” tax credits that are larger than their taxes paid. The top 1% of taxpayers pay about 40% of all income taxes but only make 22% of the taxable income. You will never convince me that’s fair.
March 18th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Photog, why do you think you own the life, property, and the fruits of labor of others? Do you think you have a lien on other peoples’ lives? Ah, I know. You’re a thief.
March 19th, 2010 at 8:49 am
I’m tired of paying for the HAVE NOTS……..As well as other foreign countries that rely on the United States to spend our money on their issues……We need to stop giving away money to companies that should be out of business….AIG, GM, Golden Sachs……I’m tired of our government taking bribs by big business………GE, Unions, Golden Sachs, AIG, and others…..We need to follow what thomas jefferson, george washington and the other forefathers written for us…….Our government is written per GODS will…….Im not super religious but they are right we do have God and only Gods will is correct…….Social Justice is communism……Read New World Order…type it in Google as well as Eye on the money….You will see the truth, Yes its correct……….Free America once again from the Greed…We already did it once..(Great Britian) Its time to fight now before we are lost forever……..Free America from Socialism….It does not work….It takes your rights away……..IN GOD WE TRUST….
March 19th, 2010 at 11:23 am
…I’m also tired about hearing about the “poor” illegals that flood our borders from one of the richest nations in the world and the 3rd richest nation in the Americas. Why should any of our tax $ go to support these illegals? Let their own government take care of them…not only that, but the US then turns around and gives about $100 million (+/-) in foreign aid to Mexico. They get to drill for the VAST oil reserves in the Gulf of Mexico, along with China and Cuba…and we get to listen to our politicians saying no because we (the most technologically advanced nation in the field of drilling) might spill a couple of barrels of oil in the process…but it’s Okay if other countries due it. Does anyone realize that in the devastation of Hurricane Katrina, not one drop of oil was spilled from any of the hundreds of US platforms that already exist?
March 19th, 2010 at 5:23 pm
Last Chance
If you haven’t already, please call your congressman, or ANY Congressman and beg them to defeat this bill.
20 years from now when this country is a shell of its former self at least you’ll be able to look yourself in the mirror and say you tried to stop it instead of just sitting on your ass….
March 21st, 2010 at 8:26 am
I agree KenC,
To stay on the topic here….My wife and I bought a home which we can afford….Yes ran our credit card up on somethings….Some we needed other thing we did not………So being the way we were raised both my wife and I sat down an talked…..Hey lets both get part time jobs with our full time jobs to pay our credit card bills…..Wow very smart…We are being proactive on our situation, but we did not look at the whole picture…..We had an ARM which of course went up……Than not paying attention to our total gross before taxes.It put us into the 28% @ only 73,000…Which is not much at all….Plus all the other taxes on cable TV which is a lux item, cell phone, internet, food, gas, cloths water, trsh…Now you are talking 45% taxed, maybe higher……
Now wee don t have kids so when we do taxes we get screwed……..Which I feel is wrong…Because I don t have kids in schools taking up space……Like corportions I cannot right off credit card interest……Driving the car back and forth to work…..I should pay less tax since we don t have children….Why should people be rewarded for having children……..Don t get me wrong I have neices and newphews….
People coming to this country should pay a coming to america tax……It should be 30,000 dollars for each family member….This should be put into the social security which the government always takes money from thats why its always broke….Also to teach these new people to the USA, English….We should make TV programming equal in nature but all be in english……There is nothing wrong with watching multi culture shows…….Just look at All in the Family…It was a great show and made fun of everyone………Tv now is so lame……….
March 22nd, 2010 at 6:23 pm
DUDE…I disagree that the tax brackets published here are wrong (they are rounded up by about $50 to $100).
http://www.fairmark.com/refrence/2009reference.htm
http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html
And yes, the government health care plan sucks except for the parasites and I like the FLAT TAX or National Sales Tax program also except the politicians will continually raise the %…but at least everybody will have to pay it…and then the politicians will figure out a way to give money back to the “less fortunate” (please read that to mean…those who have squandered their right to equal opportunity). And yes, the liberal politicians did destroy the housing market by making it “discriminatory” to not qualify someone for a 110% loan simply because they could not afford to be financially viable…yes, politicians abd reverse discrimination suck…bottom line, I love my country but I hate my government!
March 29th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
I see the thought on both sides. I see why the lower income individual thinks the higher income individual needs to pay more as I was in that situation while in the Military. Now that I am currently emploied by the FAA my over all taxable income has increased 5 fold pushing me (not counting my wifes income from the 15% tax bracket all the way to the 28% tax bracket almost doubling my percentage and quadrupling my over all tax contribution to the federal government and thats not fun either. However there ins’t anything that we can do about it until we have the ability to vote for new governemt. I wonder how many people who have commented forgot to go out and vote when the time required their votes. If you didn’t/don’t vote you have no room to complain
March 30th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
The income tax is not technically legal.
In 1953 researchers preparing for Ohio’s 150th State hood anniversary were looking for the original statehood documents. They could not find them. While Congress had approved Ohio’s boundaries and constitution, it had never passed a resolution formally admitting the future land of the Buckeyes. Technically, therefore, Ohio wasn’t a state.
Ohio congressman George Bender introduced a bill in Congress to admit Ohio to the Union retroactive to March 1, 1803. At a special session at the old state capital in Chillicothe, the Ohio state legislature approved a new petition for statehood that was delivered to Washington. Congress subsequently passed a joint resolution, and President Eisenhower signed it on August 7, 1953.
The constitution says the Congress shall make no ex post facto law. In simple terms this means you cannot pass retroactive laws (not just in criminal matters). This means no retroactive admissions to statehood.
The proposed amendment had been introduced to Congress by the administration of William H. Taft. Taft had been born in Cincinnati, Ohio, in 1857. The Constitution requires that presidents be natural-born citizens of the United States. Since Ohio wasn’t a state in 1857, Taft wasn’t a natural-born citizen, couldn’t legally be president, and couldn’t legally introduce the 16th Amendment.
March 31st, 2010 at 10:21 am
I am right now in the 15 % tax bracket. In the next 2 and a half years I will double my income which will put me in the 25 % tax bracket. So after all my hard work putting myself through school my reward is the government taking a quarter of my income. Not counting all the other taxes like sales tax, property tax and so on. If you do the math my 30,000 dollar raise a year will equal 13,000 dollar take home. That is very depressing. Hard work is paying off no more. Anyone who says you should tax the rich more has no clue how hard someone works to become “wealthyâ€. Those are the people that would rather be lazy, have 5 kids out of wed lock and collect my hard earned money.
April 1st, 2010 at 10:34 am
Lisa…thank you…well said and a perfect example!
April 6th, 2010 at 5:21 am
I am happy working in construction my dad did it his dad did it. I think we need construction workers just like we need teachers to teach us our trade and we should all be paid fairly just like if we have to have taxes we should be taxed fairly and if you thank its ok for some rich familys to fraud the world with there undercover monopolys and send allot of or careers overseas and you happen to be that percent of america that still have a career to go with that degree, again theres more people than careers/jobs so some of us have no choice but to do our part like build homes, teach and such, the rich set the laws, and we are all complaining and crying because allot of careers are under paid and i hope you all know about hidden tax,what do yoy thini happens when fiat currency is being printed our should i say borrowed from the rich family which the irs is almost like the collectors for these rich familys any ways if i dont make sence to you check out infowars. i dont beleive every thing i read, im all about the facts, well thats enough ranting for now. Ps josh you are so clueless and lmfao if you want to spel check me and(( to everyone else wake up you deserve some of the profits from all that bread you make in the bakery your not a slave if the rich man that owns the bakery wants all the profits himselfthe he should do it him self we are all important lets see mcdonalds make all that money with out there slaves. Oh ya here aresome of my replys to opposers… Monopoly, mob rule, 51% Of voters take the rights of the other half of the voters, your case is unique and dont fall under the avreage case of usa populace, you were probably made fun of in school now you bragging about what you have what was you real ambision to push through the line to get the job before the other guy had to put his master degree in the file cabinet becaue the only job available after graduating would of not hired him because he is over qualified hope you dont get laid off because i wont be hiring you, but your probably greedy anyway and to good for us servants but anyways there not hiring many ceos last time i checked so do you happen to have a bread factory i can work in i work for min wage. Retoricle
April 6th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Ryan….well said
April 9th, 2010 at 1:31 am
Most of you people are complete inbreds.
This country is going to hell in a hand basket in part due to government, but in larger measure because of the lack of education of most Americans.
Sweden looks really good right about now
April 9th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Hugh I think the most that is missing in America is Common Sense and respect……
Now what you are seeing in America is GREED……..Has anybody read Dante’s Inferno…The 7 sevens…….That”s our government……..Now add more socialism to the mix and the break down of our nuc program we are a target that is wide open….
All the issues you are seeing is what our fathers of the con fought over…..We need to fight for our freedom again…….Remeber Freedom is not free………..
April 14th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
I find the idea of a progressive tax system attractive. However what we have is not a progressive system it is a bracketed system. And yes if you are in a position where you see that if you work harder and make a couple more bucks. You shoot yourself in the foot by jumping bracket. why bother working harder?
So I see that this bracketed system coupled with the fact that my wife would be in a lower bracket if we didn’t file jointly means that I have been paying too much taxes. Maybe she should stay home taking care of the kids and save on daycare.
Am I wrong?
April 14th, 2010 at 11:05 pm
Reading some of the comments above really show the divide in our country. Bottom line we are taxed to death. The poor cry that the Rich are not paying there fair share? Really??? The Rich are paying 100x to 10000x what the poor are paying. In some instances with deductions people making under 50k a year for a family of four pay nothing to federal income tax. So tell me what do the rich get out of paying all this extra tax? Does their vote count more? Nope! Do they get any speacial governement perks? Nope!
Bottom line is the taxation system is terrible because it punishes people for trying to get ahead.
The problem really is the poor. The poor have opportunity and for the most part the blow it. Public Education is free. We have so many safety nets that people just live off them.
Here is a good way to solve the problem. Stop the poor people from having children when they can’t afford to feed themselves. Until we regulate the poor from popping out multiple children that they can’t afford our system will remain broken.
April 25th, 2010 at 4:27 am
I believe ANY form of taxation that we can muster up would be better that what we’ve got now. It’s a complete joke and travesty. It is LIVING PROOF that the more government gets involved in it, anything, the more screwed up it becomes. I mean, come on, how much time, resources, and ESPECIALLY money is wasted just trying to comply with the darn thing, year after year after year. We could put that money towards infinitely more important things…………………………oh say………………………like HEALTHCARE.!?!?!?
I used to be purely a “flat tax” guy, but now I hafta admit, I’m torn. This “FairTax” idea they’ve got floating around has me intrigued. It seems the fairtax could simultaneously solve other bigger problems as well. With a FLAT TAX, you still would have the problem of the “free ride” of the “underground economy”. That is, No taxes being paid by the drug dealers, illegals, etc. , just to name a few. Not so with the “FAIRTAX”. If you want to “live like a king”, whether you’re here legally or illegally, whether you made YOUR MONEY legally or illegally, then you’d have to pay up. period. Government CAN never nor WILL never “fix” peoples’ hearts and lives, but what it CAN DO through a “fairtax” is at least make sure they “contribute” to the “betterment” of society, through the higher taxes they would pay for the more extravagant lifestyles they would surely choose. It seems this “fairtax” could IMMEDIATELY bring in exactly what they’re crying for in Washington: more money. It would, in a sense, REWARD the “savers” in our society (as well they SHOULD be).
But somehow (I don’t know why), I think the general public would more easily go for the FLAT TAX than the “FAIR TAX”. I think if given the choice they would see the “FAIRTAX” as ‘too much’ of a drastic change to their everyday lives. After it (fairtax) was implemented, they would be more confused on “why has everything gone UP so much?”. I could be wrong.
I’m thinking even with a FLAT TAX or the “FairTax” we would STILL hear the constant cries of (some) liberals, saying how it STILL isn’t “fair”.
April 26th, 2010 at 9:47 am
So what’s up with posts just disappearing? If this Blog starts getting censored, I’m out.
April 27th, 2010 at 12:45 am
I think that if you are rich you should not be taxed. Why? because you worked hard for that money while the rest of the country sat there in class not paying attention and not wanting to better themselves. Thank God for capitalism because other wise we would have all these people that are whining about not making enough money and saying that the rich need to get taxed more running our companies and the economy. Why do you think you dont make enough money? perhaps because you never cared to lift a finger and do something about it. Nobody in this world ever started out rich and stayed rich. it takes hard work and determination to make money. The rich are rich and youre not for a reason, and im guessing that reason is 100% your fault so stop saying that the rich need to be taxed heavier, thats just plain jealousy. A flat rate is the fair way to go. or how about this if the rich get taxed more then they get to drive on their own special highways and they get to send their kids to better public schools? or just because youre poor you have to send your kid to a poor school regardless of where you live? Seems fair right? at least thats how the tax system now operates so why not make everything that way? if you want change and you dont want to be poor stop whining and do something about it, like get better grades in school, dont do drugs in school, dont whine so much and maybe people will like you better. i dont know those are just some ideas to all you whiners. let me guess you whine because you dont know what else to do and probably havent had the extensive economical and legal background to know any better. my point exactly, go to school get a job and move up in life. STOP WHINING ABOUT THE RICH!!! THEY ARE LIKE THAT FOR A REASON!!!
April 27th, 2010 at 12:56 am
RYAN maybe if you could read and write “good” (its well by the way in case you didnt get the joke) you would know that the rich dont set the laws, this is America you get as much say as any rich person does, you just have to know how to say it and by the looks of it, you aint gonna cut it friend, so why dont you stick to your job and thank God you have one, and let people who know what they are talking about deal with our tax system.
April 28th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
To be fair, Democrats should pay a surtax of 10%. We should tax those who do nothing and only suck off the hard work of others.
We can use the extra money to have work-study programs for Democrats since they neither understand work nor how goods and services are brought to the marketplace. They are a bunch of slow learners and thus need more educatation than most.
May 1st, 2010 at 11:40 am
Most people are pointing out the facts that the rich work much harder to get to be rich….I would agree we this in 1950s…..I would say there is a small minority of rich that do: do it the correct and responsible way………Those that started a small business to make it really big company yes I say awesome….For the Father that plays with his son in sports and that child takes off in a sport or dance or music…..Awesome……
What really bothers me are those who get their money by spectulating or gambling with the economy…….Or the new millionaires/CEO who take a job get bonus’ than crash the company…..I have no pity on them……This is the cause of our econmic failures…..
We as americans are paying for these rich that lost their money in this gamble…Sorry but they should not get the bail out money…..If that is the case than I am going to go to Florida Lotto and ask for my money back as well as Hard Rock Casino…..
I say tax the goods not my pay……..Lets just say you live in a state that charges 7 cents on a dollar for a purchase……With the states 7 cents than add say another 7 cents for the federal government on the dollar….I would approve that……So it would be 14 cents on a dollar total tax….So if you buy a Ford Focus yes there is a tax but is not as bad as when you buy a high dollar car……..Also don t have any write off for churches and depolmatic means….Its the same all across the board….
May 1st, 2010 at 2:17 pm
How about those of us on a FIXED INCOME who have worked all their lives, paid off their homes, and are now retired. We are out of luck when it comes to “tax breaks”. When taxes go up – we have LESS money in our pocket and no way to replace it. Gas prices increase along with the cost of electricity, water, groceries, insurance and all the other “daily expenses” that we have to pay just to maintain a reasonable lifestyle. Those costs increase, but not our income. The same Government who raised taxes is the same Government who said “no cost of living adjustment required” to Social Security.
So where does OUR “backfill” come from? Eat less? Drive less? Sit in the dark? Go without insurance? Don’t take a vacation? What should I and my family do without so that someone who doesn’t work or who isn’t even a U.S. citizen can have a free ride?
I worked and paid taxes for over 50 years, and I’m still being taxed on my retirement income. I have never been on welfare and I’ve never taken a dollar of unemployment. There’s work for those who want to work. I didn’t spend those nights and weekends on the job, and weeks away from my family so that someone too lazy to work or some illegal alien can have the same lifestyle that I, and my contemperaries worked a half-decade to achieve.
If you want something – EARN it. You will appreciate it more and no one can belittle you for owning it. I held two jobs while going to college. It was tough, but I did it and I’m a better person for it. My “reward” for those sacrifices is to pay MORE tax to support those just too lazy to put forth any effort to take care of themselves beyond going to the welfare system with their hand out.
How people who have never paid a cent into the system, or who have never served in the military or who can’t even speak English or vote can have the gall to say “its my right” is beyond all reason. What is even MORE unreasonable is that our Government listens to them.
Shame on this Government and shame on those who are willing to “do whatever it takes to milk the system”. How these people can look themselves, let alone others in the face without feeling shame and remorse is beyond my comprehension.
When the U.S. is broke and our economy is in the tank, what are all these folks who sucked us dry going to do? I’ll tell you – they’ll MOVE ON to the next “free ride”, and the hardworking, tax paying citizens of this once great nation will be left holding the bag.
May 1st, 2010 at 3:05 pm
I am in the 28% tax bracket. My husband & I work very hard and spend time away from our kids to do it at jobs that do no require a college degree (although we both have them). We pay FULL price daycare fro 2 kids (which is $470 per week) to be able to work. Last year, we paid 20K+ for daycare and got $200 (yes, two hundred) in a tax credit. My brother in law and his wife are on every government aid imaginable and pay 1% of their income on daycare and get an earned income tax credit of $8000. We are waiting to have a 3rd child so we can afford the daycare , they have 3 already. It irriates me to no end. Something must be done – there are way to many people sucking the money out of the government just because they can while the rest of us support them.
May 1st, 2010 at 5:12 pm
Okay…enough whining. There is something that can be done, but most do not have the guts to do it. It soes not matter what party you are in…this year of 2010 and in the elections of 2012, vote every SOB out of office regardless of whether they are Repubican or Democrat…then throw Obama the Muslim/Socialist out of office. Try to elect people who have business experience, stay away from lawyers and career politicians (crooks and criminals). We may just get an inexperienced congress that believes in the Constitution…bottom line, we could not elect people who would perform more pooorly or be less honest than those who are in office, and we may just get a shot at filling those seats with people that care about us….hell, we couldn’t do any worse!!!
May 4th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Making under 150K is nowhere near rich. I mean you can go to college for 6 years be a pharmacist and make 115k+ easy, physical therapist, speech pathologist..70k+ easy probably way more working overtime which is common in med field….some kinda of engineer or programmer 70k easy. coupled with your debt though that is def nothing. There is no reason to make less than 30k in life. I dont understand people who cant comprehend that. even most 2 year degrees at a community college will net you more than that. If you are at the point where you have a kid and family yada yada now you messed up…
May 4th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Just a thought of the current administration about sharing the wealth. Look at this year tax returne between George Bush vrs Obama in donations and whom the donation are given, Then compare Cheyney vrs Biden. Dont ask me to share until the standards are equal.
May 5th, 2010 at 10:23 am
Lauren, You indicate you are in the 28% tax bracket – which means you make somewhere between $140K to $209K. If your sister and her husband are getting an $8K earned income credit, they make less than $43K. You resent them? They pay less in child care? Send your kids to where their kids go…….Quit your jobs so you can government assistance. Then tell me how much jealous you are.
May 5th, 2010 at 10:25 am
Oh, and to Lauren, If the government wasn’t helping them out – maybe they should move in with you. After all, families should take care of each other – and the govt. should stay out of it.
May 5th, 2010 at 10:34 am
Lauren, I also would like to say that many people that resent government aid to the “poor”, expect the families of these people to take care of them vs. the govt. Are you willing to let your sister and her family move into your home? If not – then what is your solution? If they make less than $45K and have 3 children, I imagine it is very difficult to make ends meet. Are you or any of your other family members willing to take them in? We all know you work hard – I imagine your sister does too? What is the answer if government doesn’t dole out some money every now and then to help people? More crime, more people in the streets, poorhouses?
May 6th, 2010 at 9:30 am
Allison:
I’m sure you didn’t realize it, but you are exactly right! People who “need a helping hand” should go to their family for it. And if not them then their friends. Or their Church. Or their community. Taxpayers in Iowa should not be supporting Laura’s in-laws. They should be supporting themselves! That is exactly how it was for the first 200 years of our country. You know the time whn America grew from nothing to the greatest nation this planet has ever seen? America, and its people, prospered because all Americans were ingrained with a deep sense of self-reliance, accountability and entrepreneurship. Starting in the 60’s, that all started to fade away.
There used to be real penalties to pay for not working hard and making poor decisions in your life. You didn’t have enough food on the table, or clothes on your back. You certainly didn’t have a flat screen TV, an XBox, iPhone and $200 sneakers. Go through any government housing project and tell me how many of those you find. A lot. Before the 60’s, Welfare was paid for by the people who lived in your town. And everyone knew exactly who was taking their money. That was a very big motivator to get off of welfare and make something of your life.
Nowadays you just get your government housing, food stamp debit card, welfare check, WIC payment, EITC all anonymously. Checks just magically show up in the mail every month. It’s not from your friends, or family, or neighbors. Its from some nebulous entity called “the Federal Government”. What’s the harm in ripping them off anyway?
If there are no serious consequences for failure then you will continue to get more failure. I always come back to a story I saw on TV about 5 years ago to illustrate this point:
A few months after Katrina, the state wanted to bulldoze a Housing Project. Not sure what the reason was. It doesn’t really matter. But CNN was doing a report outside the place where all the residents were protesting. The reporter told a story about how he had talked to several residents whose families had lived there for 3 or 4 GENERATIONS. I think he was trying to make us feel bad that they were bulldozing their family “home”. It sure made me feel sad, but not for the reason he intended.
Is government really helping “the poor” by creating a system of dependence that keeps generations of people destitute with zero ability to care fro themselves or their families. Allison, please tell me how we are winning the war on poverty? It may make people like you feel good at cocktail parties to say how compassionate you are and always support the big-government politicians who want to keep raising taxes and giving more money to the poor. But be honest with yourself and realize your ego is the only thing that is helping. All of these hand-outs are destroying “the poor” and sentencing them to a life of institutional poverty.
May 6th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
The bottom line is this: The more government gets involved in our personal lives, the more screwed up our lives get, ESPECIALLY when it comes to our finances. Government “aid” begats more aid begats more aid, and on and on and on the vicious cylce goes. After a while people (not ALL, but alot) become too dependent on this “aid” to the point where they come to EXPECT IT. They come to the point where they DEPEND on it, and figure it into their overall planning, NOT trying to “eventually” “get ahead” but merely using it as “free” money and an excuse NOT to become more responsible with the finances that they DO HAVE. Our forefathers WARNED us that “helping” the poor was really no “help” at all. You create an “entitlement” society, where , over a long period of time, more and more people come to expect more and more “help”. Living WITHIN OUR MEANS is a lesson that this country has ever-so-gradually gotten away from. We have become an absurdidly materialistic society. No matter if we have the money or not, everybody is trying to keep up with everyone else, and everyone else’s lifestyle. People think that they have the “right” to live like their neighbor does, no matter what. And if they “can’t”, government “should” step in and “help” them live better, for in their minds, this “rich” person next door OBVIOUSLY did something underhanded or illegal for his wealth and DOESN’T DESERVE to live “better” than they do. Unfortunately it seems that OUR society REALLY IS BECOMING MORE SOCIALISTIC right in front of our eyes folks, and that is scary. That is, the “end” result SHOULD BE THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY, no matter what your talents, or anything else. It is mindboggling to think that this nation “of the people, by the people, and for the people” could every-so-gradually over the centuries become EXACTLY what our forefathers DID NOT WANT: a socialist nation. Why? How? Because of the ever-so-gradual increase in DEPENDENCE on goverment. Each succeeding generation, consciously or unconsciously, coming up with ways for government to “help” “make” things better. And this help costs money.
America IS the most prosperous, the most blessed nation on earth. For the most part, EACH generation has lived better than the one before it. But now I believe we have reached an inflection point, where we are SO prosperious (“rich ” by comparison to the rest of the world), that g-e-n-e-r-a-l-l-y America and the Americans who live in her, have truly become spoiled and entitled. Yes, I know I am generalizing, not “everybody” is, but enough are. They see this person or that person getting “help” for THIS or THAT, and then they themselves feel that they too, are “entitled” to this “help”, thus creating this vicous cycle we see ourselves in TODAY, creating an “entitlement society” and g-e-n-e-r-a-l-l-y over years and decades and centuries, LESS PRODUCTIVE, and yes, more “lazy” people.
“Living within your means” means EXACTLY that. It means EVERY DECISION in your life should be measured on simply “Can I afford this?”. This includes the kind of home you buy, the kind of car you drive, the kind of clothes you wear, and YES FOLKS, the number of kids you have. Now I’m sorry if this offends some people, it probably does, but those ARE the brutal facts of life.
May 6th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
I would like to also add this:
You see what is happening in Greece as we speak? You might think I’m crazy for saying this, but I believe it IS at least possible that that could be coming to America.
For those of you who DON’T know, here’s a quick summary:
Greece, as a country, is broke. Their government is broke. They have come to the rest of the world for a bailout, through the IMF (International Monetary Fund)(by the way, 17% OF THAT AID comes from……….. yes, the USA, OUR TAXPAYER MONEY). As a condition FOR that aid, the Grecian government MUST make cuts in it spending, including its “help” for the common man, to balance their books. They MUST.
The people in Greece don’t like it. They are rioting in the streets. Burning storefronts, etc. , causing havoc.
How did they get to that point? by the country as a whole NOT LIVING WITHIN THEIR MEANS, the government NOT LIVING WITHIN ITS MEANS, the people becoming “entitled” to a standard of living that has PROVED to be unsustainable.. They are angry that their lives MUST adjust to a new reality, NOT necessarily “poverty”, but nonetheless, a change in lifestyle.
Sound like somewhere we know?? Now I’m not saying that this could happen next week, or next month, or even next year. But, SOMETIME in our future, if our economy keeps faultering, and unemployment keeps going up and up, our “entitlement” society could see some of those events play out here in the good ol’ USA. People will riot in the street, blaming government and everybody else around them who “has money” for the situation that they will find themselves in.
OUR country is broke. OUR government is broke. WE go to the rest of the world for a bailout EVERY YEAR. Just this year ALONE we have gone to the rest of the world for 1.5 TRILLION DOLLARS. Why? Why do we (as a country) spend OVER AND ABOVE what we bring in? to support our lifestyles. Period. And, I believe, as is the case in Greece, our “lifestyle” WILL EVENTUALLY CATCH UP with us, and PROVE to be UNSUSTAINABLE. Over the years our society, again with the help of government “AID”, has become “used to” an unsustainable standard of living. We have become “used to” living HIGHER that what our MEANS would/could say, all with BORROWED MONEY from overseas countries. And if/when our society gets a financial slap in the face, (which in my opinion, is what we deperately NEED), like Greece, they are NOT gonna like it.
Think about it.
May 10th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
To FedUpGeeze, I am sorry to hear about what you are going through. My mother-in-law is in a similar position, but my husband and I make enough to help her out (unlike Lauren’s sister, my mother-in-law worked hard and makes good decisions, so helping her out is no problem because she is the type of person that you want to help).
If we have to, she will move in with us.
But for the record, my mother-in-law does a lot of household chores for me. Frankly, I think I owe her more money than I give her considering what she does for my husband and I. Somehow, I doubt that Lauren’s sister would move in with Lauren and immediately take over (and do a great job) on ALL household chores! Somehow, I have a feeling that Lauren’s sister would moan, cry, and complain that it was too hard and that her sister should give her more money……
May 10th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
John T – you are completely correct and it scares me!
I will be voting this election season!!!!
May 12th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
Folks… Read ‘Rich Dad, Poor Dad’ by Robert T. Kiyosaki.. Also.. get Brian Tracy’s Success Mastery Academy.. the first will make you think… the second will set you on fire with optimism and an understanding of your potential. You do not need to be rich, but you do need to have hope and a plan for a better future.. these two items will give you a great push in the right direction. Creating a bias for action and steps to make you UNSTOPPABLE!!! No matter what your age.. do this. If you are young.. “If I knew then what I know now…” Don’t have to say that in 30 years.. Thinking and working toward a better future for both you and I.
May 21st, 2010 at 9:36 am
For those of you who are “rich” and think you have it so bad having to help pay for all the programs the “poor” are using. Well guess what, those of us who are working “poor” pay for the same programs out of our paychecks. Guess where the money I paid in state and federal taxes went last year. The same place as yours. Into HUD, WIC, health care, etc. And guess what else. I am among many that make just enough that I can’t get any of it even if I needed it for my family.
Oh and also amoung many “rich” and “poor” alike I have utilities and bill and have a college degree which equals student loans. Don’t think that only the “rich” have those and us “poor” are all uneducated unqualified layabouts who get handouts to pay for everything. We pay the same bills. Only difference is that it’s out of a smaller paycheck. And most of what used to be called your working poor now make too much to get any help even if and when needed due to the way our nation as a whole has gone.
How many of us can still remember when the 15% tax bracket started with anyone who made 23000 or 24000 a year with a spouse. In less than 5 or 10 years its gone down to 16750 now puts you in the 15%. Yet with the cost of living going up as incomes go down that amount may just barely sustain a two person family without needing help or going on utility budgets so that during the months when they don’t use as much they can bank up funds with the utility companies for the months they do.
I have had friends come to me for help because when they desperately needed it due to cut backs in hours or work they went to try and get it and were told that if they need assistance to work even less hours or quit their jobs in order to be able to get it. Since when did things get that bad that in order to get the help your family may need you have to give up what little you may already not have or work 24/7 so that you don’t have to in a job market where many people are now lucky to have one 20 hr/week job?
And if you are in the higher end of your tax bracket think about this. 15+% out of the top amount you can make and be in the bracket still leaves you after taxes in the 15+% income bracket. 15+% out of someone who makes the lowest amount to be in it puts them in the next lower income bracket after taxes come out. But they are still seen as being in that 15+% beause everything you make is seen as the amount before being taxed.
Oh and it gets better. Some of us are in one of those generation that’s paying for SSI and being told that it probably won’t even exist by the time we’re old enough or infirm enough to be able to get it. That’s money that some of us will never get the chance to see any of it back with the way things are going. And yes I know people who get it and don’t deserve it. I also know people who do deserve/need it and its been denied to them or the nursing home’s found a way to take it all before they ever see it thanks to our high cost of health care.
So the moral is most of this is we are all in the same ocean only some are in nicer boats. You want to see a change stand up to the government we as a people elected and make this country “for the people, by the people” again. Not run by politicians some of whom are richer than some of the corporations that the common person works for these days.
May 21st, 2010 at 10:11 am
And one more thing. For those who say well you just didn’t do good at your education choices or how you did this that or the other. I was in the top precentile. I was on honor roll. I went into a degree that has a continuing future. I had friends who did the same. Friends who now work minor jobs because the jobs aren’t hardly there anymore even for a college grad. Or they only want someone with a modicum of experience coming into the field. Hard to get job training when you need a job in that field to get trained in it. Oh and some companies don’t see an internship as counting. It’s almost better anymore to go to trade school than college.
And for those who worked their way up. Be glad to still be there. My whole family was taught to work their way up. Most of them did. And sevaral of them among many people are right back at the bottom now because someone higher than them decided it would be better for the corporate paycheck to move to another country. Thank you government for helping plant that idea in businesses heads. Or it was cheaper to higher two less experienced people to do the job than pay for income and benefits for someone that had dedicated years to the company. Couldn’t you have just told them they were getting a pay cut at least until things started looking up again financially? With the way the job market is most people would still stay because it would mean that they wouldn’t be on the unemployment line somewhere. And those that didn’t weren’t serious about taking care of themselves and their family anyways. So then yes people could have the right to say it was all that persons fault they are right back on the bottom.
Some of the people on this site need to open their eyes to reality. How many jobs, good jobs, jobs that required an education were cut just as quickly as ones that didn’t because of the overall economy. Because of the tax incentives to move elsewhere (ie outside the US). Because of so many other reasons. Yet you blame the person as if it was their fault. As if they went into the corporate office and suggested it themselves.
Wake Up people. This isn’t just on an individual level. It’s the whole system that needs an overhall. Why are we rewarding companies that lay off half or more of their employees by giving them money and tax breaks for saving a few bucks or worse moving away from the people that live in the area that government is supposed to be running. It may be saving a few bucks for the companies but its not saving the government that then pays those stimuluses to the companies. That then has those people said companies laid off begging to recreate jobs that we once had or new jobs and needing help in the process until it does.
It’s hard to get a good job when there aren’t many jobs in general and no one’s working creating them. We should reward the companies that create jobs. That bring them in. Not the ones that take them out. It’s more expensive to reinvent the wheel than it is to fix it. But somewhere someone got the idea it would be good to just tear down the wheel and start over again or had to because someone else did it before them.
May 21st, 2010 at 11:59 am
Josh:
I have to tell you Josh that I have read every comment on this web page and I have to tell you that you are exactly on the money with everything. I am a hardcore conservative that’s had just about enough of these socialists, communists, and Marxists making ignorant comments that makes them sound like they were in Joseph Stalin’s Administration. Can one of you pro-socialism yokels inform me of one successful communist country that has our standard of living? If someone tries to tell me about a European country, please read about what is happening in Europe and to their Euro before you say anything. Our taxes do need to put changed to a flat tax, but that is one of many changes that need to be done in order to get back to true Capitalism.
May 22nd, 2010 at 12:52 pm
My first company was funded by a rich guy who, in the 1970s, was in the 78% tax bracket. Prior to that, people making over $1MM per year were taxed at rates as high as 99% – go find some old tax tables. But you greedy rich and waiting-to-be-rich forget that your heroes Reagan and Bush abolished those high rates on the people who truly could afford to pay more, and therefore left the tax burden on you, the middle class. We cannot have gigantic armies without SOMEONE having to pay for them. You greedy GOP fools just don’t want it to be YOU. As for me, I am in the 35% bracket and PROUD to pay my taxes. I’ll bet most of you richos are hiding your income in the capital gains subterfuge and are paying only 15%, another Bush gift to his buddies. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
May 23rd, 2010 at 3:57 pm
To JVO,
Although I am not rich, I am wondering why you use the word greedy and rich together. Just because someone is rich does not make them greedy. If there are two people, a rich man who wants to keep his money and you who believes the money should be taken away from the rich man, who is the greedy person? There are likely more greedy people in the middle and lower class who believe that the rich man’s money should be given to them. Those who desire to take other people’s wealth should be ashamed of themselves.
May 23rd, 2010 at 7:02 pm
The problem here is that healthcare is tied to jobs. If you lose your job, and at least 10% of the population have due to the financial meltdown, you are screwed. Cobra is too expensive, how many people without an income can afford over $1500/month just for healthcare? If you forego insurance and have a medical emergency, then you are looking bankrupcy in the face. Those who can’t pay their bills end up making insurance more expensive for the rest of us in the form of higher premiums to make up for the loses. How fair is that? Why not just have everyone pay a % of their income, say 2% as it is in New Zealand for care. Also, there are many people who work and pay taxes to help out the folks on Medicaid, but they can’t afford healthcare insurance for themselves. The CEO of Anthem made 24K in bonuses for one year, and that wasn’t even his actual wage. No wonder healthcare is ridiculously expensive!
May 23rd, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Regarding illegal immigration, I have yet to hear how the folks who hire illegals are being punished. Please send me that information. There will always be those who come to the US in search of a better life, just as all of our forefathers did. Unless of course, you are a Native American. As long as there are Americans who will exploit their cheap labor to cultivate their farms, gardens, work in factories, and take care of housework, there will always be an illegal problem. Whatever happened to the fence we paid millions of tax dollars to erect?
May 23rd, 2010 at 10:57 pm
JVO,
Comparing the 90%+ tax rates of the past to the tax rates today is comparing apples to oranges. Nearly everything was deductible under the old rates, so almost no one except Elvis Presley paid that rate. Now very little is deductible. So essentially “my hero” Reagan ushered in a near flat-tax.
Now to debunk your other Marxist, wealth envy drivel. You say Reagan’s tax cuts shifted the burden of taxes to the middle class. Not true. If you look it up, you’ll notice the total percentage of taxes paid by the highest income earners has gone UP, not down. In fact, the top one percent pays nearly 40% of all income taxes. The bottom 47% pays NO income tax. The tax burden was NOT carried in this fashion by the evil rich in the 70’s. Now, why do the rich pay more taxes now under a lower rate? Several reasons. One, as I said, a lot of deductions have gone away, especially when you factor in the AMT. Second, when your next dollar is taxed at 90%, you’ll either a) decide not to bother earning that dollar, or b) hide the dollar from the tax man either legally or illegally. However if your next dollar is only taxed at 30 something percent, you don’t bother trying to hide it.
As for the 15% capital gains tax. You don’t understand the concept of double taxation, do you. The company earns money. Some of that is profit and they pay corporate income taxes on it (the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, BTW, which is why all our companies are leaving the country). The money that is left is added to the company’s value. This, by definition is a capital gain for the owners. Who then get taxed again.
As for gigantic armies, wars, etc: did you know the ENTIRE war on terror (Iraq and Afghanistan) had consumed about $1 trillion between the time it started and the the time Bush left office? The “stimulus” act rammed through by your “sort of a God” Marxist-in-chief Obama spent nearly that much in one stroke of the pen. (And danged if that stimulus hasn’t done exactly what he promised and kept the unemployment rate below 8%!)
I’m glad you’re proud to pay your taxes. Write them an even bigger check… I’m sure they’ll take it. But your desire to be financially raped by an out of control Congress doesn’t give you the right to use government force to make ME pay more to fund your little Marxist utopia. You can call me GREEDY if you like, but I’ll point out two things: 1) Government is not charity; I’ll choose to give my money away to people I deem need it, not some government hack paper-pusher. 2) What you call “greed” is enlightened self-interest in a free market. If everyone buys and sells goods voluntarily and tries to maximize the deal for themselves, everyone wins in the end. But I wouldn’t expect a Marxist to understand that. To you it’s strictly “to each according to his need, from each according to his ability”. Nevermind that that philosophy destroys personal initiative and personal responsibility, and empowers some bureaucrat with the power to determine what to classify as a “need” and what to classify as an “ability” and gives him a gun to enforce his classification.
You can see the end result of your Socialist / Marxist utopia playing out right now in Greece. Half the population works for the government. Everyone suckles at the government teat (you know, the “need” part). And there just aren’t enough people with “ability” around to shoulder the load anymore. And Greece is only the first. Europe is about to be plunged back into the dark ages. I don’t want to see that happen to the U.S. but you bunch of Statist-Marxists seem hell bent to make it happen.
May 24th, 2010 at 10:01 am
Amen Tim
May 24th, 2010 at 10:40 am
Brian: Well said. and Absolutely correct. JVO’s comments are a perfect example of how the Dems use this class warfare crap to justify their socialistic agendas and brainwash people AWAY from America’s core values of independence and self-reliance. and JVO is falling for it hook, line and sinker. Unfortunately he/she has ALOT of company in the USA in 2010. Take from the “rich”, they’re evil, and give it to those who didn’t work for it. Creating a lazier and more dependent (on gov’ment)society as time goes on. It get harder and harder as time goes on to wean people away from “mother’s milk”. Some people just simply can’t/won’t see that.
TimT: Beautfiul man, just Beautiful. That was almost poetic.
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
JVO: If you are “proud” to pay your taxes to ever-bloated government who, EVEN AFTER taking all this money in, STILL can’t balance its own checkbook YEAR AFTER YEAR, I’m sorry, but you:
A: need your head examined. or
B: are an uba-liberal idealogue on whom we are wasting our time trying to speak to in simple common sense terms. or
C: Both .
Probably both.
Sorry.
May 29th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
It’s interesting that while 2010 was similar to 2009, 2011 looks there will be big tax rises for higher income earners as the Bush era tax cuts are not extended. Sounds like it is better to be a mid-income earner in America.
June 1st, 2010 at 10:01 am
Hopefully, in 2012 sanity, logic and reason will return to the White House…even better, with the proper effort this tear…sanity could be returned to Congress.
Both parties are trash right now…I am marking my calendar for NOV 2 as “Throw out the trash” day!
June 1st, 2010 at 10:18 am
I seriously wonder with the upcoming tax hikes why I work so hard. I could live in a smaller house and be just as happy. But what will all the liberals do when I start acting like them – ie – I work less (and thus pay way less taxes)?
Who is going to foot the bill when the smart people in this country start to downsize and kick back for awhile while waiting to vote for a good fiscall conservative?
Anyone on here who wants to take more from the rich to give to the poor, please tell me the name of a country that had a socialist agenda that has survived more than 200 years as a socialist country and is doing well (no financial troubles and health care there is great – no one leaves the country for health care purposes – so don’t name Canada or Saudi Arabia because people leave those countries in droves for purposes of health care)! If you can name that country, then maybe I will move and you won’t have to worry about me voting for a fiscal conservative in the next election.
June 2nd, 2010 at 1:04 am
We can debate about the role of government and the best tax system, but in the meantime, I see a lot of people around me wasting the money they do earn. The best way to thrive in the USA is to use what you keep after taxes wisely. Whether you’re rich or poor…
Save your money. Don’t waste it on cigarettes, alcohol, candy, soda, fancy clothes, or anything else you don’t really need. Make dinner at home, with your family. Borrow shareable items from your neighbors and family, and share your things with them. Carpool, take public transportation, ride a bike, or walk. Learn to enjoy a book from the library or a conversation with a friend. You don’t _really_ need cable TV or movie rentals!
If you get creative, you can think of many more ways to make your money go further. Once you have some savings, a lot of options open up. If you don’t like the system, work to change it, but in the meantime, make the most of what you have.
Good luck.
June 3rd, 2010 at 1:36 pm
The government would have a lot more money (and less need to tax) if we could eliminate farm subsidies, most of which go to the largest landowners (thanks to their ability to pay for the best lobbyists). Yet Congress cannot even manage to pass payment limitations to these fat cats because, golly gee, what will happen to Congressional campaign contributions then? Make the connection between the way our system works now, and the way political campaigns are financed, folks, and you’ll soon understand why we cannot dig ourselves out of this hole without campaign finance reform, which cannot and will not happen from inside the system because the people running the show have everything to lose, and nothing to gain, from any change. The least we should do is insist on knowing EXACTLY WHO paid, HOW MUCH, and on WHOSE behalf. Fine with me if we forget about limiting political contributions –that’s hard to enforce and is perhaps more regulation than we’d like. But there ought to be COMPLETE TRANSPARENCY on the political dollar flow. Then and only then will we know the motives of each politico. Then and only then do we know who can be trusted with the machinery of government. Then and only then do we know who to vote out of office, and who to retain.
June 8th, 2010 at 12:40 am
Anyone who believes the rich are taxed too much at a mere 35% clearly do not understand the concept of society. If you make say $500k/yr you can surely afford to shell out $175k of that in taxes. Sorry you get stuck living on a mere $325k every year. I make no more than 20k per year after taxes and I’m barely squeezing by. I’m not complaining though, even though I drive a very old car(not by choice), live in low income housing, and have piles of student loan debt. I’m educated (so don’t give me the ‘you should have worked harder’ speech) and choose to work in social services because I sincerely enjoy helping other people to live better lives.
I work in social services and our funding comes directly from the state(your wallet), funding to the specific area I work in (mentally disabled adults) has been cut again. The people I work with could very easily be you or a loved one. Wouldn’t you want the best care possible?? Of course you would. But that means you need to cough up more $$$ each paycheck. Try explaining to the individuals I work with that the reason they can’t have the things the need/want is out of reach because a select group of people feel they are ‘overburdened’ by taxes.
June 10th, 2010 at 11:30 am
Dongs:
Please don’t lecture others on how much of their own money is “enough” for them to keep. Worry about your own money.
If you’ve been reading this blog you would know that most people aren’t upset that they have to pay taxes its that the taxes they do pay are COMPLETELY WASTED by your employers. So then your employers have to ask for MORE and MORE and MORE of other peoples money.
You are in a fairly unique situation in that you actually care for one of the few groups that actually deserves to be supported by others. But they don’t get enough do they? And you don’t make enough caring for them do you? I’m sure yuo don’t and its a travesty. The government is going to spend over $3,500,000,000,000 this year. Doesn’t that sound like more than enough to spend adequately to care for those that are unable to care for themselves? Sure, but since we are pissing away all of that money on political handouts and subsidizing the lives of the lazy there isn’t much left over for you and your kind.
So I know you mean well, but the answer is not to tell the person paying a couple hundred thousand dollars in taxes to stop whining. The answer is to tear up the blank check and use the trillions of dollars we collect in taxes on the people and things that are truly NEEDED not just wanted because its an easy way to buy votes….
Somehow, someway, someday this country is going to have to stop voting with their bleeding hearts because they hear a story like yours and it makes them want to cry. They have to vote with their minds and realize that their vote for more government, more spending is hurting rather than helping this country and its citizens.
But then again I must just be a Fascist who hates retarded people
June 10th, 2010 at 9:50 pm
I must be getting old I remember the day when people was ashamed to be on a goverment program.
June 10th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
I have been working on geneolgy of my family in 1878 my Great Grandfather arrived in America he was 27 . I assume that makes him a Irish American. He arrived in New York and relocated to Indiana. He later moved to Texas in 1889. He was a farmer by trade. He died at 56.
My point is he raised nine kids without SS or SSI or Gov Handouts. No Food stamps no WIC, no housing assistance, no cell phone, no unemployment assistance, no utiliy assistance. No fannie mae.
He had 250 acres and a 7 bedroom home no mortage and 2 years to complete the home.
Life would be great if we could live like my Great Grandfather. A simple farmer
June 17th, 2010 at 8:49 am
This is the slowest updated blog in the history of the Internet.
June 18th, 2010 at 4:23 am
I have lived 10 years in a socialist country. In fact, socialist is an understatement. The more proper description would be communist or out-right criminal. A country where you can end up paying 80% of your earnings.
The country I lived in is France. Only 30 years ago, it was in the top 5 greatest economies in the world. People worked hard and lived well. 30 socialist years later, it is virtually impossible to start a business and the average wages and living conditions have dropped severely. It is “normal” to live in a 350 sq. feet apartment in Paris, even as a couple.
If you penalize hard working, money-making, entrepreneurs to reward (or pay) poor, less-working, less money-making people, that is exactly what you get. France is a country where you can make more money if you’re unemployed rather than working. Today, it is hardly in the top 50 economies of the world, and living conditions are mediocre to say the least.
A country, state, city or company’s living conditions are only as great as its ability to create a product or service of value.
The fastest, easiest way to destroy a country to penalize those that make it even possible to exist or survive.
Also, I read quite a few notes above, talking about having to pay more if you make 50k or 100k etc.
Being rich seems to mean making 50 or 100k a year. After Socialism has corrupted a country, rich is making over 20k a year.
Before you go raving about Socialism, look at what it has done to some of the most prosperous nations. Look at the living conditions. Talk to the people there to see how run down they are by their government. Ask a few Scandinavians about their lives to see how ambitious they are, and you will see how Socialism has taken all hope from creating a business, the freedom of creating a business, to create something original that can be of use to others.
Americans don’t know how “lucky” they are for paying such “low” taxes. You only pay 35% for over 350k.
June 19th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
All these people whining about how people in the higher tax brackets *deserve* to pay more are sickening.
Higher tax brackets are a punishment for trying to succeed, the way they are laid out create what I can only describe as a “no-mans land” as your trying to make it.
I’m in the 28% bracket and I an absolutely not “rich”. I dont own anything, I rent, and saving for a downpayment is damn near impossible on my income.
I support my family, mother in law, and a few animals (6). All this makes my monthly expenses very expensive, but I do it because I love my family and my pets.
All you guys in the lower brackets, try this out and lets see how much you would like being taxed 28% on ANY income.
Draw out a budget, 60% to all your monthly expenses AND your taxes if you were taxed 28%. Then *try* to save 10% for an emergency fund, 10% for savings, 10% for retirement, and 10% for entertainment.
Some of you will see that you have to keep increasing your income to get out of a negative cashflow by trying to work this type of *recommended* budget. You have to increase your income so much in fact, that when you do find a positive cashflow, you have to raise your tax bracket again.
A flat tax is more than fair. I have no doubts in my mind that the majority of people on welfare programs are more than capable of earning the money they get from these programs and more if they applied themselves. Theres more oppurtunities to make money in the toughest of situations than ever today.
If you can walk your dog, shop at a grocery store or mall, and drive a car. There is no excuse to be unemployed and on some social program. I have worked a lot of awful jobs, I never tried to be picky. I took what was available, and only left when something better came up.
I did everything I needed and more to get to where I am now, and you have absolutely no right to claim what I have worked and sacrificed for.
June 21st, 2010 at 12:49 am
Lots of opinions on both sides of this one
Should the greedy rich pay more? or should the lazy poor work harder and stop complaining?
I’m in the 25% bracket Plus 8% State Bracket Plus 7.5% Sales Tax Plus Fees and tax my on car, telephone and all utilities etc…so I’ll guess maybe another 3%
That equates to 43.5% of my Income and of course that does not include Government mandated car and health insurance costs so lets call it an even 50% low ball
The average person probably works around 45 years, so in my case 22.5 years of my production is claimed by government enforced with the threat of violence.
Anyone who thinks that income taxes are not collected by violence I challenge you to think about why you pay your taxes and if your answer is because of some social obligation then I’ll ask how many times you have voluntarily written a check to the IRS.
The only reason you pay your taxes is because if you don’t you will be hauled off to jail at the point of a gun. Tax on labor is immoral period.
If you reply to this post please don’t ignore the violence. “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” – Albert Einstein’
June 21st, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Ryan…you forgot about payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare that are then taxed again when you start receiving them…plus the matching funds that the employer must kick in.
And I love the people that use the term “greedy rich” instead of the term “successful through their own labor and/or ingenuity”…People are only “greedy rich” to the lazy parasites that want to live off of their efforts of others.
No let’s talk about the real “GREEDY” rich…the government. Government does not produce one red cent of income through its own efforts…it only takes from others and uses it to buy votes!
July 1st, 2010 at 1:09 pm
William – if your genealogy, did you happen to research the historical context of your great-grandfather’s life? Just because he made it without government handouts didn’t mean he did everything by himself. Farmers then were in much the same position as they are now – constantly indebted to private lenders. Your great-grandfather probably had a home and land DESPITE being a farmer, not because of it. All it takes is one bad harvest or natural disaster to wipe out your income for the year, at which point you are forced to borrow again (a cycle that on a farmer’s salary can sometimes be impossible to exit). That land was cheap in the 19th century because it had recently been seized from indigenous peoples at no or low cost to new “owners.”
Your romanticism of a “simpler” time is misguided. Life has never been simple nor easy, not for anyone.
July 3rd, 2010 at 1:17 am
Jess…did you ever consider the possibility that he did make it without help? Are you so used to help that you can believe people can make it on their own?
Of course life is a bitch, and some people fight through it to success and others whine about their misfortune and demand others take care of them. Most people, yes MOST people in this country don’t know what hard living and poverty are…try spending a couple of years in a jungle with nothing more than a poncho liner for your home, no clean water, no bathrooms, no showers, no TV, no A/C, no shelter, etc. plus being hunted…now that’s hard times. Most of the parasites think that hard times and poverty is running out of food stamps for cigarettes and booze before the end of the month!
July 5th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
Gwen, you’re one of those people who feels entitled to things in life, aren’t you? We all make choices and sometimes those choices have an impact on your bottom line as well as the quality of your life. I’ve been on both sides of the fence, making under $30K for many, many years, and then making $150K+ for the last decade.
When I made the lower salary I could leave my job and forget about it for the evening. I had every weekend free to do as I pleased and didn’t have to arrange my life around work-related travel. Now I work double the hours that I used to, am away from home almost 50% of the time, and have to remain constantly available should a work “emergency” arise.
I’m not complaining. I’m simply illustrating that individuals have choices and those choices tend to come with a variety of pros and cons. It’s a balancing act and if you don’t like your side of the seesaw you should take the required actions to change it. I, and people like me, should be able to reap the fiscal benefits that help balance some of the reduced quality of life we experience.
Gwen, did you know that 47% of Americans don’t pay ANY taxes? Are you aware that US Federal employees have owed and unpaid Federal taxes exceeding 1 BILLION DOLLARS? Further, the 95th percentile income earners already contribute over 58% of the taxes collected in the US. The 75th percentile income earners contribute over 80% of the taxes collected in the US. How much do you have to make a year to be in those percentiles? Surprisingly, not as much as you might think. If you make about 80K a year as an individual or household, you are in the 75th percentile of income earners. Kind of puts it all in perspective doesn’t it?
I’ll vote however I need to in order to ensure the inequity doesn’t increase in your favor. It’s time you and people like you learn to take responsibility for your own lives and your own decisions. You don’t think you make enough? Get rid of your (likely) 2 cell phones, 3 televisions, cable and high speed Internet services, etc. Stop living beyond your means and having income eaten up by outrageous credit card interest rates. Maybe this doesn’t apply to you and it certainly doesn’t apply to everyone in the lower income earner percentiles, but it applies to WAY too many of them. There’s a definite problem when the vast majority of people living below the “poverty” level have lifestyles that include the following:
Fortysix percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a threebedroom house with oneandahalf baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
Seventysix percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than twothirds have more than two rooms per person.
The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
Nearly threequarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
Ninetyseven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
Seventyeight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
Seventythree percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.
July 7th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Carol, you are exactly right.
What drives our economy to be the highest producing economy in the world is the principle of symmetry. You get what you work for. It’s the fairest way. If you want to make more money, do the thing that makes you more money. It’s each person’s choice. The money doesn’t mean that it is the hardest or the most qualified or even the most luxurious job in the market, it only means that it is the job that the economy has chosen to pay the best. This is why capitalism works and why the USA is still #1 in GDP and income per capita, is because the market awards the people that bring the most monetary value to our country. Changing this would have dire consequences on our position in the world.
July 8th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
The problem with an income tax that uses a graduated scale is that the principle is not fair. That’s why we need to support the fair tax which will eliminate the income tax altogether as well as coporate income taxes which will bring companies and jobs flocking to the US as a tax safe haven. the fair tax is the only true way to be fair about taxes those that consume more pay more and those that consume more lavishly pay more as well since the tax is based on end consumption of goods. if you save then you avoid paying taxes altogether so lets recap what the fair tax does.
1) eliminates income tax (yay!)
2) eliminates coporate income tax
a) companies flock to america as a tax safe haven bringing with them many jobs and higher demand for labor
3) taxes people based on how much they consume and how lavishly they consume
4) encourages saving
I don’t see a down side do you?
July 8th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
120k in student loans Says:
“I’ve busted ass for four years in college financing it myself and just got my first job (after busting ass to find that too). I started calculating how fast I can pay off my 120k student loan making 50k a year and I figured for years while in college that it would only take a few. WRONG, 38% of my paycheck is now going to taxes.
…time to get married I guess and play the system since the government is so damn involved in every facet of my life. Look in someone elses pockets Mr Obama! (try the 40% of Americans who pay squat in income tax!)”
…..someone making 50K a year is taxed 15% (in 2010) under the current administration. The previous administration (in 2007) taxed 50K a whopping 25%. Not sure where the 38% comes from, nor blaming the current administration. But in any event, the rate for the 50K tax bracket went down.
July 8th, 2010 at 9:27 pm
As a physician not far out of residency I find myself often lamenting my choice of career. Myself and my colleagues have trudged through 15 years of education, residency training, and fellowship to provide care at an elite level. Healthcare in this country is the best in the world, but it won’t be for long.
I personally love my job, but I will not sacrifice the time with my family in order to pay more taxes or provide care for the unappreciative. Access to care and elective procedures (your joint replacements, spinal fusions etc…) will soon decrease. It is impossible to increase access to care and decrease costs concurrently. Something has to give and the socialists and communists in Washington knows this. Do the socialists and communists posting here realize this, I severely doubt it.
Socialists dream of a panacea where everyone is equal, no individual has anything more than the collective. “To each according to their need, from each according to their ability.” People are however not inherently equal, and they are not content to be forced to be so. The large majority of the American people will not be content to be so either, regardless of income.
The very freedom of speech socialists enjoy today was given to them by the “evils” of wealth, capitalism, and industry. Were it not for the capitalists and industrial might of this nation that existed during the second World War you might be speaking German or Japanese.
Americans believe in hard work and being rewarded for their efforts. Americans believe in freedom from government oppression, be it economic or physical. The American dream is nearly dead but the candle flickers yet. This fight is larger than marginal tax rates. It is about socialism/communism vs. capitalism, it is about big government vs. responsible government, and it is about furthering a welfare state vs. fostering personal responsibility.
Keep your heads up and vote for your country in November, she needs us.
“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.” ~ Thomas Jefferson
July 8th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
Us constitution provides for the postal roads and navy…so you have it the only threee entities are legal. Military, Tranpotation, Post Office. his is the real GOV. Graduated taxes are fair but im not sure the IRS is but taxes are voluntary I pay and I pay we get something for it err we used too..now the party is over pay up and pay down the debt to a level we can finance for the future say no more than 35% GDP to pay for the debt is balenced…
July 9th, 2010 at 9:14 am
I put myself thru college on a work study program and 3 part time jobs. I lived in a slum apt. and my cat killed the rats. I got my BSN from OSU. I worked 6 years saved up my money from my nursing job to go back to school to get my MSN in anesthesia. I was on a work study program again and worked on the weekends in the ICU while in graduate school. I graduated from University of Pittsbugh and now have been a CRNA for the last 18 years. I had no student loans. I now earn a very good living. I am not a minority and I am not a scholarship winner. I just worked hard and never took no for an answer. And the work was up to me…. no one else. I love giving anesthesia…. I love my job…. I love my career and I love the money I make….. and I don’t want to give it away to others who whine they can’t make it…. I just don’t believe it… EDUCATION = Better lifestyle….. get it???
July 10th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Can someone explain why the tax bracket jumps up a whole 10% at 67-68K? That seems insane. I just got to the point where it looks like my family will make about 69K this year, and I am actually going to get less than I was after all this hard work and schooling? With a family of five I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination. Seriously? How is one supposed to get ahead? Maybe I should ask my boss for a pay cut.
July 12th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
It only jumps up to 25% for that portion over $68 k. Example:
1) on your earnings up to $16750, you pay (@10%) = $16750 Tax
2) on your earnings over $16750 to $68,000, you pay (@15% on $51,250)) = $7687.50
3) on your earnings over $68,000 t0 your estimated $69,000, you pay (@25% on $1,000) = $250.
In actuality, even if you use standard deductions and do not itemize, your net taxable income will be far below the $6,000 gross you will earn.
July 14th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
Wow, I’m sorry to say this, but what a bunch of miserable shmucks … I especially love the people who think that all poor people made themselves that way and that all of the rich are undeserving. Way to generalize everyone – bravo. And please don’t attack those of us who chose to study laaaaaaame subjects like Sociology. Seriously – insulting college grads because you were … what? Guided in exactly the right direction. Are YOU and engineer? Is your life complete? Ewww, I’d hate to be you. You obviously aren’t as happy as you could be if you’re going to continue your horrific ranting and complaining to no end on a silly tax bracket site that no one reads.
With my own rant aside, I’d like to point out that some people ARE disadvantaged but VERY smart – they worked hard and went to school, busted their bums to pay off loans, majored in whatever the heck made them happy and not what others thought was “best” … and they are happy in life, rich or not. I’m eating my usual beans and rice for lunch with my coveted avocados (once you grow your own you understand the expense!) and later in the week will splurge on a nice meal out with friends. Living outside of our means and on credit in a system that praises wealth over hard work is what hurts us. Obviously once you’re “rich” you stop caring about the lower levels, but if you’re one of the self-made and respectable wealthy ones out there who worked hard to get where you are, I’m pretty certain you know what it’s like to struggle. And I’m pretty sure that somewhere along the line either a person or company gave you a chance – a chance to prove your worth. Not every has that you guys. Realize this. And please spread a little joy in troubled times. It’s hard enough in this world without everyone hating everyone else. I hope that some of you people, “rich” and “poor” are giving your leftovers to a homeless person – not because you know their story or because you think they deserve it but because they are hungry. Have you ever been truly hungry? Let’s get some perspective. Sheesh.
July 15th, 2010 at 11:53 am
For those of you complaining that your salaries or hourly wages are taxed too much, and you want to be able to spend more of what you earn – wake up! You would not be paid anywhere near as much if tax rates were drastically lower. About the only taxpayers who have a (theoretical) right to complain about marginal income tax rates are coupon clippers who make most of their income out of investments – and if they’re in the 35% marginal tax bracket, they have a heck of a lot of capital with which to see them through their lives. Even small business owners wouldn’t see much benefit out of a flat tax, since most of their Schedule C deductions would go away.
July 15th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
I can see both sides of the argument, but I work hard for my money. I think anyone making under 200,000/yr should be taxed 15% and anyone making 200,00-1,000,000 should be taxed 25%…anyone making above 1,000,000 should be taxed at max 30%…First of all, if you work hard for your money you should be rewarded. I just got offered a new job, and Im gonna be in the 25% tax bracket bc i make above 34,000/yr…However, the money I make is barely enough to pay back 70,000 of student loans, plus pay all of my bills..I think taxes should be lowered…but let me get to the point…
If we are paying so much taxes, then school and medical should be a right and not not an option..1st…Any child who wants to go to college should be able to for free and not have to worry about paying back sally or not being able to afford it. Ridiculous…
2nd…Medical should be free period…It makes no sense that we are paying out of our pockets for any medical care…Ridiculous…This makes no sense whatsoever…It should be a right…
Pay the doctors from those dang taxes u take from us Government…The worst part is I may end up having to pay you taxes around refund time when u already took so much from me…
This capitalist system is flawed…Im not from the U.S. but Ive lived here since I was 14…I don’t have a problem with a socialist system if the gov’t paid medical and school with all the taxes they take from us.
Bottom line is bc we pay so much in taxes, education and medical should be a right..
July 15th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
In addition to my above statement, lazy people need to get your but up and go to work..Its not our problem..The opportunities are available for you..That’s why my family migrated to the U.S. The opportunities are there, you just have to work for them. I am tired of seeing women with all these children and we have to pay to support them.. I am tired of people living off of hardworking adults like myself. This is ridiculous…take from the hardworking, and reward the lazy.
I do believe that there are people out there who really need the help for one reason or another..However most people take advantage of the system. The Gov’t needs to crack down on these individuals. If you work hard, you should keep most of your money, bottom line…
I do believe taxes are necessary to fix rds, transportation, helping those who really need it, and keeping the country safe etc…But does it really have to be this much? Lower our taxes Gov’t….
And once again, bc we pay taxes (whether low or high) education and medical should be absolutely free…..
July 15th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Why do we call the top earners in society greedy, what about those who want to benefit from them with no effort of their own (other than voting)?
Let me break it down. It seems the reason why the top income earners (aka the “rich”) don’t like the tax system as is and continues to progess, is because it continues to take from them (the rich) and give to the poor. It seems as if this is where the poor get the idea that the “rich” are greedy. The true irony is in the meaning of the word greedy which websters defines as: having or showing a selfish desire for wealth and possessions…and selfish is defined as: seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others. It would seem by the accepted definition of the words, that the poor asking the “rich” to pay more are the greedy ones as it would seem they are the ones seeking advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.
Another common mantra of the those in favor raising taxes on the rich is: “it’s time the rich pay their fair share”. The statement itself ironic in the fact that the “rich” are the only ones paying any share, while the poor benefit from those taxes through social programs the “rich” don’t get to benefit from such as (WIC, welfare, medicare, etc). This form of redistribution of wealth is called Socialism and if we continue slipping on that slope, then the next step would be nationalisation which would remove incentives for innovation and stimy technological growth. On the other hand, we would all be “equal”, though being equally poor doesn’t sound all that great to me. (read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand)
While the subject of this article was not about political philosophy, the posts continued fall into that category. And for those of you who are wondering, I am currently active duty military and I am one of the “greedy poor” who continues to look for ways to benefit from the system as it is. Ironic, isn’t it?
July 15th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
I agree with ken c..I am from Guyana. My Parents brought us here to have better opportunities. The funny part is my parents were making lots of money in Guyana, we came here and struggled to get a life…However, the opportunities are endless. I am tired of people complaining about not going to the top. Go to school, get an education…(granted I hate that we have to pay to go to school which I think should be free) and work for your money.
I know what real poverty is…Poor people in this country have section 8, and live in Gov’t housing..sometimes nicer than people that work hard for their money. There are people in my country with no running water, no electricity, kids with no shoes, no help from the government, no houses, built shacks etc.. I know what poverty looks like believe me…So for all the poor people in America complaining, get it together…It really isn’t that bad… If you work and stop being lazy (I am referring to the people that play the system, not the ones that really need the help) then you will succeed…opportunities are endless.. Keep pushing no matter how hard it is…I am a testimony that things can get better….
July 18th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
There seems to be quite a bit of misconception here about how the federal tax code works and what it taxes. Most of the postings above, to the extent they weigh in on the subject, assume that the rich are rich because they work harder than the poor. But the richest among us don’t work at all. Instead, they sit back and receive dividends, interest, and capital gains on investments that might have been made by their great-grandfathers; in fact, they might not have worked a day in their lives. THAT is one reason why a graduated tax system is fair. The assumption that a person who earns $100,000/year works five times as hard as a person who makes $20,000/year is simply wrong.
And note that a graduated tax system like the one we have is smoothly graduated. The tax brackets refer to the amount of tax imposed on the LAST dollar a person makes in a year. So if the cutoff between the 28% bracket and the 33% bracket is, say, 170,000 (for someone who’s single), and we’re comparing two people, one of whom makes $170,000/year and the other of whom makes $170,001/year, all that means is that both taxpayers pay exactly the same amount of tax on the first $170,000, and the one who makes $170,001 has to pay 33 cents to the feds on that last dollar instead of just 28 cents. We all pay exactly the same amount of income tax on the first $5,000 we make in a year, for example.
Because of that, someone who, through hard work, education, or good old American know-how, earns more than the next guy, can afford to pay more to the government. A dollar means a lot more to a homeless person than it does to a millionaire, and having a flat-tax system, which would require the homeless guy to give up just as much of his first dollar as the millionaire gives up on his last, would be unfair.
There is something to be said for a consumption tax, but that is a separate issue from the income tax. We already have a consumption tax–the sales tax–and the only question is whether it should be higher.
As for corporations, don’t forget that they aren’t people. Corporations can’t take vacations, go out to nice restaurants, etc. The argument for keeping their tax rates low is that the income potentially gets taxed twice: once when it’s received by the corporation, and a second time when it gets passed out to the shareholders as dividends. If it’s not passed out to the shareholders, that means that it’s been reinvested in the corporation, which enables the corporation to hire more employees and helps our economy to grow.
The reason the Tax Code is about 5,000 pages long is that it is trying to be fair. I think it does a pretty good job. A short tax code almost by definition has loopholes, and plugging those loopholes makes the Code longer. We’ve got among the lowest taxes in the civilized world, and our standard of living is pretty good. If we want to pay less in taxes, we can’t complain about things like potholes in the streets. If we want a higher standard of living, we need to be willing to pay more in taxes. Denmark and Holland are both pretty nice places to live, but even though their standard of living is a good deal higher than ours, their taxes are a lot higher. Things are also much simpler for their governments because their populations are much smaller and a helluva lot less diverse than ours.
I don’t like paying my tax bill either, but its the price we pay for living under the greatest political system ever created by the mind of man. I’m not saying there’s no room for improvement, but considering the size of this country and the difficulties presented, I think Congress has done a pretty damn good job in striking a reasonable balance.
July 19th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Ok , let play fair . The people in less tax bracket get less benefit from the government . The people in more tax bracket get more benefit the government . Any questions . And if you are not a US citizen or US legal resident . You get absolutely nothing in this government at all. HOW ABOUT THAT KIND OF TAX CODE TO BE PERMANENT !
July 19th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
BRH…typical BS… a fair tax code goes something like this:
Everybody pays 10% (or whatever constant) on the money they earn. There are no deductions. Corporations pay 10% on the money they earn and do not disburse as dividends to their shareowners. Shareowners pay 10% on all money received as earnings from their investment.
That takes one page…the reason the tax code is 5,000 pages long is to redistribute wealth and put the government in control of the money people earn. It makes no difference whether the money is earned through hard work or as the result of inheritance. Quite frankly, your thesis is BS. If this is the price we pay for living in the greatest country in the world (quickly being destroyed by socialists), then how in the hell did we get along so well for 150 years without an income tax? We taxed consumption…that’s how! The problem with taxes is that they never end…hell the $1 +/- tax on phone bills to pay for the Spanish-American War was just repealed a decade ago….90 frickin’ years!
Congress is worthless…it is nothing more than a bunch of professional politicians buying vote…on both sides of the house…good job, my ass! BTW, there doesn’t need to be a “reasonable balance” there needs to be a flat tax that applies to everybody instead of using high income tax to buy votes!
July 19th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
BRH, you listed many reasons why you believe our current tax system is fair but then you stated in your last paragraph “I don’t like paying my tax bill either, but its the price we pay …”
If our system is fair and you are getting a great deal for your tax payment, then I would expect you to be very happy with your purchase of government services.
Just like you, most people don’t like paying taxes because we know there is a large amount of waste and unfairness in how our taxes our spent.
July 20th, 2010 at 1:24 am
BRH,
You’ve got the idea that rich people get their money from their grandfathers? Sorry only about 2% of current millionaires got their money through inheritance. And you think that rich people just sit around the pool while interest and dividends roll in? This is what most Marxists like to say to create wealth envy. It’s easy to steal from someone if you despise them.
See if you can follow me here: I decide to invest my money instead of blowing it on beer, cigarettes, and lap dances. I’m taking a risk here. The investment may go bust and I get nothing, not even a woody because of some cute thing squirming on my lap. The money I used as seed money was earned by me. So I’ve spent a portion of my life earning money that I’m then risking to get more money. Generally, the higher the risk the higher the POTENTIAL reward. (Note the emphasis on “potential”.)
Also, the “rich” may decide to just stuff their money under a mattress. Maybe they have enough to last the rest of their life. Know what? They pay ZERO income tax every year because they have no income! Instead, people who are *trying* to become rich are taxed by your wonderful progressive income tax.
And your 5,000 page tax code (more like 80,000+ pages) is not that long to be “fair”. It’s to buy votes for politicians. If you believe otherwise, you’re living in a dream world. Politicians long ago figured out they can influence behavior with the tax code. Want to “help” some pet industry who has lobbyists that visit you frequently? Simple!
Give a tax break to the industry or make the product somehow tax deductible for the people who buy it! Presto!
I don’t know where you get the idea Denmark and Holland have a higher standard of living. In fact the average POOR person in the US has a higher standing of living than the average person (not poor) in Europe. And we now see the outcome of the little Socialist utopias over in Europe…. Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Hungary… they’re all in various stages of meltdown.
Oh, and the “greatest political system ever” wasn’t generated by our tax code. That didn’t come along until the progressives (like that evil bastard Woodrow Wilson) managed to trick everyone and get things passed like the 16th amendment. (“The income tax will only apply to the top 2% of income earners, you know, those evil rich bastards in the northeast…. so all you southern, western, and middle states feel free to ratify the amendment… it’ll never affect you!”) No the United States was created by men who understood what freedom and liberty meant. They risked their very lives to secure that freedom. That freedom and liberty created an environment where a bunch of backwards colonies could become the world’s sole remaining superpower. We’ll see how long that lasts with the current crop of anti-capitalists in charge. And a bunch of sheep electorate who feel it’s “fair” for a bunch of hack politicians to use the police power of the State to confiscate the life’s work of someone and give it to someone else.
July 23rd, 2010 at 7:47 am
BRH your totally correct on the tax system, but way off the mark on our progressive poltical system. Also you mention congress doing a good job. Bull Shit my friend. All they are worried about is their offshore bank accounts set up by Big business and lobbyist on capital hill.
Congress does not give a rat ass about the working class people. All they know how to do is tax and tax and tax. Look at your cell phone bll or phone/cable bill. Tax on everything. What really pisses me off I struggle now to pay things like a cell phone but yet we give those on welfare free cell phones,(aka I mean single mothers on welfare) I think thats wrong. If these congress people sit there and preach social justice and spread the wealth and equality than everyone should get free cell phones no matter what you make. Thats equality. If you give hand outs to certain people thats wrong they need to go out and work.
I feel those on welfare should have to work for those checks instead of sitting home. Send those illegals back and teal these welfare people to earn your check you have to pick fruit and vegetables, pick up trash. Cut the grass.
Its that simple. Our government is creating a generations of lazy people. And my taxes should not help to create more of these people.
The tax code is wrong. I think people should be tax on a part time or full time pay scale. Meaning those that work 40 hrs should only be tax on 40hrs. Any overtime or bonus money should not be tax. Part time would be harder to set up you would have to find the medium hours part time people work than figure out what to set theirs at.
This way I bust my ass to get vaction mnoney or retirement money I should not be punished for it.
July 23rd, 2010 at 11:57 am
Oh, the paranoia is very deep. The evil government is out to take everything you have. Personally, I think that the tax code needs to be a few pages longer so that they can close all the loopholes in the earned income credit and the child tax credit. Sit down sometime and figure out how much a married couple with two children pays in tax compared to an unmarried couple with two children. In addition, have one person earn about $60,000 a year and the other one earn about $15,000 a year. Be sure to do the calculations in all the legal manners so that you get the best answer for each scenario. If you do not find that the unmarried couple, living together, has a much lower overall tax liability, you are doing something wrong. So, my advice is, don’t get married, just live together.
July 23rd, 2010 at 5:11 pm
DUDEINTAMPA……I think everyone CAN get a free cell phone. Just sign up for a new cell phone plan and you can get a free cell phone. Now if you really mean free cell phone service for welfare recipients you are wrong on that point too. Discounts are provided to ‘low income’ individuals in some states and in some cases individuals are provided with limited use phones that can be used for emergency calls. It is provided under the assumption that all people should have access to emergency services whether they are rich or poor. Check it out…..most of these programs were started prior to the 2008 election, which to my recollection is when Obama was first elected President.
I can just envision how companies would increase their number of employees if workers were only taxed on the first 40 hours. I assume that you also mean you don’t want to have social security and medicare withheld after 40 hours. That would be a great savings for employers and they will work you as much overtime as humanly possible and not hire anyone else to handle any extra workload. You will be working overtime whether you like it or not. Great way to get the economy moving, but it will give you more people to call lazy because they can’t find work. And you can complain about being overworked. Good luck with that.
July 23rd, 2010 at 5:27 pm
Once again…the tax code needs to be 1 page long or less. It simply needs to say that (if you want income tax) 10% (or pick a figure) of everybody’s annual income will go to the government to pay for national defense and other thing AS AUTHORIZED BY THE CONSTITUTION. There needs to be a clause that states that the percentage cannot be raised…period. That way, everybody pays their “fair” share (the same percentage of what they earn).
The alternative approach (if you believe in a consumption or ad valorem tax) is that everybody pays a 15% (or pick a figure) on everything they spend (ie: same as the European VAT) and that will go to the government to pay for national defense and other thing AS AUTHORIZED BY THE CONSTITUTION. There needs to be a clause that states that the percentage cannot be raised…period. Again, that way, everybody pays their “fair” share as “rich” people spend a whole lot more than poor people do.
The bottom line is that if you pay no taxes at all, you have no respect for the system not any respect for the people who do support this country. The worse thing that ever happened to us is the payroll deduction…it masks how much the average person is paying in taxes and if they get money back…they think they got it from the government.
The government produces nothing…they only consume!
July 25th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
Fear is driving this economy and will continue to do so until the majority begins to see what is really going on. Here’s what it’s all coming down to: The so called “rich” earners of this country (us capitalists) the members of your community that pay out salaries to all those blue collar folks who bash the so called “rich” by saying; “rich people should not receive tax breaks, should not get any additional incentives…” even though the so called “rich” invented the business idea and took all the financial responsibility for setting up the company, and hired all the necessary people to make the business concept feasible and solid.
Come on folks, do you really think that business owners and execs would rather not pay their employees fair salaries with benefits as opposed to doing what this economy is forcing them to do… trim their damn fat! That is the whole point of a free market. When times are good, pay is good. And when times are tough, you get lean. It’s logical economics 101.
However, our government (yes that includes Obama, Bush, Clinton, Etc) in conjunction with the real “rich” the World Banking Organization says; to hell with logical economics, we want you all to take an entirely different approach. They want you all (We the People’s Treasury) to continue to borrow from intergovernmental holdings (the Federal Reserve), a private for Profit Corporation made up of key members of the World Banking Order. The reason is to financially enslave not only our generation, but that of our great, great grand children as well. When the government speaks of our federal deficient exceeding several trillion dollars, they do not speak of the multiple trillions of more dollars that We the People’s Treasury owes the Federal Reserve. Conspiracy theory? I think just conspiracy!
As a result of this purposefully created troubled economy, the so called “rich” are being forced to consider taking a leaner direction in their budgets, and look to innovative solutions just to keep their business alive.
Computers and automated machines (robots) can do the job today of multiple people, and do it far more efficiently, economically and consistently, and never once complain. Heck, now there are even machines that fix the production line machines when they break down. Health-care costs continue to skyrocket and the “land of the free market” is rapidly falling into extinction.
Here is one thing that this rapidly falling economy is forcing into extinction… the blue collar worker. Blue collar workers are going to need to innovate themselves through new education in an entirely new career path or suffer the way of Raphus Cucullatus (the Dodo Bird).
Are there large corrupt companies out there playing the game that the World Banking Order wants them to play? Absolutely! However, there are many small, medium and large enterprising entrepreneurs today that are not playing that game at all, but are victims just like you of it.
It is time for Americans of the earning community to see beyond the five inches in front of their faces and “get a clue” to the real problems that lie ahead. We are all about to be captured into complete financial slavery by our own government, foreign governments and a World Banking System that wants only two things; total power and financial domination over all.
Corporate America is NOT the problem. The fact that the Government of the United States is a Corporation… is a problem!
If you believe I am lying… then continue to do what you currently do, walk aimlessly into utter darkness and despair. This is not going to get any better, no matter what Obama tells you. If you think that my words make logical sense then figured out what side is right for you and pick a damn side; then stay loyal to it no matter what! The salvation of our country and its entire population is at hand.
Thanks for reading!
July 29th, 2010 at 9:12 am
http://www.fairtax.org
this will solve a lot of problems as it relates to how individuals are taxed and for those who claim it would hurt the poor, check the different studies on the site, the poor would actually have a LOWER tax liability under a fairtax. Check it out for youselves!
July 30th, 2010 at 1:06 am
If there is one thing anyone should learn from an economist its that relative economics is a psychological phenomanon (sp?) that really is IRRATIONAL. The actual spending power of any other individual has no short run effect on your purchasing power. People think it does, but it just doesnt. If I have a 10 inch plasma TV, and my neighbor has a 15 inch one… does that make mine smaller? Because someone may pay more for the 15 inch TV, does mine become cheaper? No, and yes this is relevant to money, because money itself can be quantified as a good, just a highly liquid one. If I make 10,000 a year and Tim makes 15,000, do I now make less money?
This idea that others having more intrinsically makes you poorer is the most outlandish sophism I have ever witnessed. In other words ITS BULLSHITE! Im lucky. I have lived a very comfortable life. My dad was not so lucky. He worked 2 jobs throughout highschool, took student loans and went to college, then took out more loans and went to Grad school for business. The reason why I am lucky is that we live in a system that rewards that. The playing field will never be completely even. In socialism, you think someone having a friend in government wont get a bigger slice of the pie? Or someone who’s favored? Its not that a lower tax system is super awesome sweet perfect. Its that it’s better than the alternatives. Economics is not a perfect science. It just tells us ehh… it could be worse… Also what people fail to realize is that in highly socialized system the lower classes are often even worse off than capitalist lower classes (i.e. check pre and post industrialization lower class living standards and note that the revolution also correlates with a massive opening up of markets…).
Also what no one is talking about is that for every 1 dollar taxed about 30% of it is lost (according to the Harvard school of Economics) to literally nothing. Its deadweight loss. Its court fees for tax cases, and tax enforcement. Its not necessarily a redistribution of wealth… its shrinkage (a la Seinfield).
July 30th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
JES:
Sorry my friend but the Cell phone with these quote on quote plans are not free. You have to sign a Two year contract which is BS, but looking at your cell phone bill you pay for the poor to have a free cell phone. The plan does not relate to those making over a certain amount of money which I say is unfair. Its either everybody gets it or nobody at all. Which I agree with the last nobody should get the free cell phone, one must work to get one. I don t believe material things such as phones, houses, and automoblies should be subdeized to lower income people. Giving things to people free or even cut in half compare to what I pay is not right. It makes people Lazy. To get ahead in life one must work. Its not the responablities of myself and others who work hard to help these people get things free or pay less for what I myself struggles to pay for. Its unfair and unjust. If these people are hungry or need help training to get a job I say help them, but material things such as some of the things I listed above should not.
Next I am 36 I can make more money for my retirement by saving it in a savings account than letting the government holdingit or spending for me than giving me an IOU. Also Social security was not setup for people to live off of. It was just a little money to help people when woman lost their husband in the great World war 2, but the progressives strecthed that. Social Security is a progressive social program and needs to be gone. Its sad that those who put pennies into social security come out way ahead.
If we got rid of many of these programs that enforce socialism our country would begin slowly to get better. Plus people would have to work.
Now not taxing the 40 hour work week would help the economy. It would let those who got that extra money spend it. Companies would not work people to death. That a sterotype that union members would say.
July 31st, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Your money has no intrinsic value w/o a stable government to protect that quality. It is just an abstraction. If you don’t like paying your taxes, which is the only sacrifice most civilians will ever be asked to make, maybe you don’t deserve the privilege of living here.
August 2nd, 2010 at 8:28 pm
You nailed it Econ Student! Right on!
August 2nd, 2010 at 8:47 pm
Taxes are not intended to be fair – their intended to raise revenue. Those that benefit from government services (defense, roads, social stability, pro-business policies, etc) should pay a pro-orated amount based on the benefits they gain from those services. In the US we have decided (right or wrong) to measure the benefit an individual receives from government services based on income levels. The more income the greater the benefit and, as a result of these greater benefits, the more taxes owed. The real complaint should not be how the government raises revenue (individula income taxes) nor where it comes from but rather how mush the government is spending and what it is being spent on.
August 5th, 2010 at 5:41 am
It’s interesting how a lot of people claim that to be “fair”; the rich have to be taxed more so that the poor can have more. How is that fair in any way? I’m in the middle and I believe that a LOT of you lost the concept of what taxes really are about. Taxes are supposed to be a communal service that is provided to the payers. As such; it covers costs for cops, schools, fireman and etc. I honestly don’t believe that the rich should pay more for the same service. If they are CEOs and etc; then they did that (mostly) themselves and good for them; they probably don’t see their family much because they’re in meetings all the time; but since time is money; they work more and get paid more; good for them.
Don’t you get just yet that all of the old tax rules that used to be aimed at the rich people are actually starting to bite the middle man more so since the levels do not change proportionality? (see the mostly inflation-free AMT for more info).
Being taxed in income level is a little sad. Ideally; we would only be taxed on our purchases or estate (ie: where the services are).
August 5th, 2010 at 10:35 am
I don’t like taxes any more than anyone. But I am happy that I live in a country that has among the lowest income tax rates in the industrialized world. And the $800 Obama tax cut last year helped greatly.
Most of you don’t remember when the high end of income taxes were >90% in the Eisenhower administration. Now the highest rate is 37% I think.
August 6th, 2010 at 11:03 am
The biggest problem is not who is paying what tax bracket, the problem is the wasteful spending by the Federal and State governments. I bounce between the 28% and 33% tax bracket. I am ok with paying double the taxes as someone making less income. I did not go to college, my parents have no money, my grandparents have no money. A few ideas…
1) Income Tax EVERY working adult – (Illegal or Not)
2) Cut assistance to anyone ILLEGALLY in the country REGARDLESS of where they came from.
3) Require Lawmakers to have the SAME HEALTHCARE SYSTEM the people that voted for them have.
I could keep going…
August 14th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
I’m frankly appalled at the amount of people who believe that the “rich” should be taxed more. I am by no means part of the “rich”; I’m a college student, who busts my a** as a server to make ends meet because my parents can’t afford to pay for me. However, I am not, like so many who write on here, bitter about my “poor” status in the world. My parents did not go to college, but they worked very VERY hard to get where they are – and where they are is in the 25% bracket, the “rich” bracket, the “frivolous” bracket, the “share more” bracket. Yet they have car payments, and house payments, and insurance payments, and their home is falling apart – they need as much money as they can keep and always have. But my parents have worked their entire lives to make it to this point, and they came from nothing – my mothers parents were poor immigrants here. Yet they have never taken federal financial aide of any kind.
My father has always posed one question to me:
“What entitles me to anything someone else has worked for?”
I’ve spent my life thinking of that question. I do not deserve anything that someone else spent even a few seconds of their time earning. Some will argue that there are people who are “handed” money. Sure, there are people in America who have inherited their riches. Sure, there are people who may have been lucky in their earnings. But why do I deserve any of it? For spending my time filling out a form? If I can live in a city, go to college, pay all my bills – rent, car insurance, car payment, utilities – then who is to say that THEY deserve more? It takes a little more hard work and a little less complaining.
I will never ask for anything I don’t deserve – and I don’t deserve anyones money for simply existing at a much lower income bracket.
The top 1% of earners in the US pay over 40% of the taxes. Furthermore, the steeper the taxes, the less money is donated to charity, the “rich” are those who are the philanthropists – and donations are at the lowest they’ve ever been since they began being recorded in the 1950s. (and in my opinion charities spend the peoples’ money better than the government ever could).
Food for thought.
August 15th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
The reward for being successful is you make more money and wind up keeping more, a lot more.
We are just in the 33% bracket (after deductions &c) and save over $70,000/yr pretax; between 2 401ks, deferred income, and 2 employers matches. This is before several thousand in charitable contributions and over $20,000yr of mortgage interest deductions. The means of doing the same are avail. to most people.
The people who have the most legitimate complaint are those making less than $50,000/yr household who cannot for budgetary reasons take full advantage of 401k savings.
The great myth is that the tax system punishes people for making more money, it actually rewards people at an accelerating rate. The next dollar you make above the SS maximum is taxed at a 6.3% lower rate.
yours,
ras
August 15th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Increasing taxes slows economic growth. This is not the time to be increasing taxes…in a recession… If you want to increase taxes … do so when times are good … not now …
I pity those who actually think this tax increase is actually going to helping them by making the economy stronger … Please educate yourself … Ignorance is bliss … until you no longer can ignore … or want to know the truth…
Get out and challenge yourselves to understand how to fix this country as individuals.
August 16th, 2010 at 12:43 am
I think the current tax system is pretty fair. Afterall, it’s not like if you make 100k you pay 25% of taxes on all of it. You only pay 25% on the last 32k that you make. That means the system is perfectly fair relation wise between the brackets. So, if you make just enough to get into a bracket, it’s not like your getting screwed.
The only change I would make is have poor people a little. Like Maybe make a 5% bracket for the next level down. I think it’s a problem when only 50% of americans pay income taxes…I mean really. Everyone uses our countries servies about the same. Police, army, mail, roads, etc.
The last change I would make is to have more brackets after 35%. It is unfair that someone who makes 500k a year gets taxed at the same rate that a person who makes 10 million does. We should have atleast a 38% and maybe a 41% tax bracket as we get into the millions.
There are also a lot of loopholes that could use fixing. One’s that come into mind include hedge fund manager loopholes which have a maximum tax of 15%.
August 18th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
wow. comments have been posted to this for almost a year. i bet that’s a record.
August 19th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
All this whining, from everybody. Opportunity is not equal. Just because someone works hard and studies doesn’t ensure they will be well off, and just because someone is not “rich” or able to make ends meet doesn’t mean they are lazy and didn’t try. If you do have money, that doesn’t mean you have handled your finances well. How many millionaires have filed bankruptcy?
My step son is challenged. He has a very hard time learning, and was held back twice, and struggled to get through a special program in his high school to help kids with challenges. Thank you to everyone whose taxes made that happen for him. I guess that includes me, I have not and will not be bringing any children into this world, and yet 80 to 90% of my property tax goes to the school. I’m not whining about that. I’m proud about that. I do live in a state with a high property tax. I think it should be lower, but I choose to live here none the less.
I really don’t think this county is falling apart because someone is paying 25% for their income of $137,300 and someone else pays the same 25% for the first $137,300 and then 28% for the $50,000 they make above that. Stop whining that you pay more tax then other people because you make more. You don’t. You pay the same tax for the same amounts you make as everyone else. And the other half of you stop whining because someone makes more money then you.
And stop whining that letting Bush era tax cuts that are ALL READY SET TO EXPIRE, that Obama is raising your taxes. I mean jebus, compare those rates to Reagan era rates. Oh, I know, you were paying 35% and now it’s going back to 38%. I’m sure you will have to go on welfare as a result.
All I hear from pretty much everyone here, is “me me me”. You’re all selfish. Our tax system is not perfect, but it’s pretty good. This country will be just fine, so let’s help the less fortunate along the way. It does the soul good.
August 19th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
How much MORE in taxes did YOU pay in 2009 so EXXON/MOBIL, and GE didn’t pay ANY taxes on over $35,000,000,000.00 IN PROFITS right here in the USA?
August 20th, 2010 at 4:53 am
Its absolutely pathetic the ammount of complains being given out here…
You have people who are making 100k+ complaining that they are being taxed more than the people making 10k a year. The whole “only 50% of people pay taxes” is bullshit. The fact that some of you think the income tax is a gift to some ppl who are getting returns and are not paying taxes? You dont know what’s going on then. Everyone pays taxes. The only people that dont are those under 10k (its actually under 9750 i believe), and if they’re under 10k they probably arnt living on their own, and they are probably kids… And those making under 16k (roughly) for married couples. That’s still them making under 8k each, aka not enough to live on.
Even if someone recieves a Refurnd, its because the ammount they are being taxed is not as much as what has already been taken out of their check. They have already paid their income tax requirements throughout the year.
As for the people complaining of their 38% tax on their 350k… Stfu. Simply put, stfu. First of all, you act like you’re paying 133k in taxes.. you’re not. You pay 38% on a portion of that 350k. And if its such a struggle for you to have to pay that tax, then you have issues with your life style.
The income tax isnt soley for the purpose of social security for those who give up and wanna be lazy in life. If you arnt aware (and i’m sure most of you arnt by the responses) social security is capped. You are only taxed for social security at a max of 100k (about, varies per year) of your income. After that cap, you no longer pay social security on your income. Exe: make 150k, you only are taxed social security on 100k. As for the actual INCOME tax, that pays for damn near everything in the country… Army, navy, FBI, FDA, TSA, FDIC, FCC, and the list goes on… The firedepartment, police, animal control, coast guard, national guard… Highways, traffic signs, traffic lights… You want to stop paying taxes? You want all that to go away? Dont bitch and complain when you get hit by a drunk driver, dont bitch and complain when someone wants to go 100MPH on a residential, and there is no police to stop him… When another country just decides they’re gonna set their army all over our country, and we cant do a damn thing about it because we had to disband ours because we couldnt afford it anymore….. dont bitch and complain.
Im currently a student, paying ~5k a year, with student loans. I go to a State school, and am currently in the process of a 3 month job interview/internship, while still working full time. After getting the job, and after graduation i will be starting at 55k a year. So all you “i have 120k in student loans because i went to harvard for a psychology degree and now only make 40k as a jr high school councilor”… stupid.
August 20th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
Don’t blame White House and don’t blame the small business owner. Blame the extremely rich who make a mess of things and then convince us to bicker and point out scapegoats!
I’ve lived in both extremes and the more money you have, the smarter you get about hiding it. Money is being hid by the rich in offshore accounts, tax havens and transferring jobs to overseas factories and call centers to skip out on paying a decent wage and taxes for workers in the states. The result is low US employment and higher taxes to cover the money going into these tax havens.
The government is supposed to see that there is an even spread of wealth and that all American citizens get a fair chance.
You can blame the extremely rich for this immigration crap too. Working class people and small business owners mow their own grass but the rich hire Mexicans to babysit and tend their yards and once the economy tanks, they want to send them all back home like they came for the hell of it. Most people on the US continent came here for opportunity. I agree that there should be stricter measures in place to stop the influx of immigrants but without work, there would be nothing to come for.
I say shut down income tax and use sales tax as a means to tax across the board. It is not likely that someone will fly overseas to buy toilet paper and everyone who wants to buy something will be subject to the tax. That includes illegal immigrants and the extremely rich.
August 23rd, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Look at the end of the day you people can all argue all day and have descent points. But lets not fight americans against americans. The real problem is that we are shipping all of our jobs off seas. Lets fix that and up the import tax. That means more money in everyone’s pockets in america from upper to lower class. AND means that we don’t have to support as many unemployed. Hence removing the need to tax people so bad. … And since everyone has a descent point then I’ll chime in as well. I think that doctors are the only profession that if rich shouldn’t be taxed more. All the rich wall street people are making thier cash illegally somehow so why not tax the crap out of them
August 23rd, 2010 at 10:02 pm
@Sean: Upping the import tax is a good way to totally kill the economy. Go Google “Smoot-Hawley Tariff”. Passed in 1930, it went a long way toward making a normal recession into the disaster of the Great Depression. If you want to bring “our jobs” back to the US, we need to do the following: 1) Get rid of the corporate income tax. We have the second highest corporate income tax in the industrialized world. And thanks to Obama and company, it’s about to get bigger. (For you “progressives”, i.e. Marxists, evil corporations don’t just eat corporate taxes… they pass it on to consumers, ie. US) 2) Get rid of the damn labor unions. Yeah, sure, they had a purpose at one time. That time has passed. Our companies have to add a huge cost to their goods to pay for inflated union wages and pensions. And the unions themselves have just become a branch of the Democrat party. 3) Get rid of the minimum wage. When the government mandates you pay more for someone than the job is worth, the job goes away… to Mexico perhaps. Your last line about all the “rich wall street people making cash illegally” shows your total ignorance and shows how you’re putty to be molded by the Democrat Socialists. Pure wealth envy. Do you have a 401K? Guess what? You’re one of the wall street fat cats!
August 26th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Wow. This has been a veddy interesting discussion. Everyone is quite passionate about what he/she believes…but perhaps we’re all a little ‘jaded’ because we speak from where we standing in life right now. Many have said we should run the government like a ‘business’, but the responsibility of a government is so much more dynamic than a typical business; I would think it’d be hard to compare them one-to-one. As for TimT’s comment about corporate taxes–they may be %39.2, but you’d be loathe to find any corporation that pays them. There are enough loopholes and exemptions and such, that corporations aren’t losing as much $$ as you would think–I’ll refer to this 2004 article that talked about the concern of corporations supposedly not paying their fair share: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34787-2004May17.html
As for me, I guess I’m still on the fence about all this. There are no easy answers, and most of us on here have no complete, concrete solutions. I’m sure the FairTax proposal probably has problems that aren’t quite apparent to its supporters. My hope is that we’ll find a REAL way to stimulate services and need so companies can start making some revenue and be able to employ some folks. We may never have the %4-5 unemployment rate again, but we may be able to do as well as can be expected.
September 2nd, 2010 at 11:04 am
Sorry I am responding to a post left by Miss Swan way up in the list here but I can’t read things like that and not say anything. Your hands are the hands in my pockets, your meal was one I provided, your medicine was paid for by me and the funny thing is you probably drive a better car then I do, you probably have a designer purse. That is what the problem is, the priorities of the less fortunate is what makes them “less fortunate”. Do you think all of the American people that are well to do or even Middle Class did not work hard or prioritized? Do you not believe that people that work hard should be rewarded? Did you not get as many stars in kindergarten as the other children that worked for them and is the resentment that you carry to this day what fuels your rediculous flame that is going to burn this country. The well to do stimulate the economy, if you tax them, they will not spend. Who are you or anyone that is not actively working on making their situation better to expect a handout. What makes you think that I would not love a hand out, I would, but I believe in working for what I have and earning it. I am not opposed to helping the truly needy however I think there need to be stipulations one being time contraints. American people helping should not be their indefinite source of income. We need make sure they are avidly working towards some sort of goal. Another big thing I believe in is, if you want our services you must pass drug tests. The only part of the country that should be under the Socialist rule that you are a proponant for should be pople like you, the ones that accept that hand outs. The working class of America should not be subjected to the same lifestyle, living conditions and healthcare that people with their hands out are subjected to. To put it bluntly I think you are a disgrace as are all the rest of you that believe what you believe… I hope you like your dinner ” I BOUGHT IT”